Treadbreaker

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[Sach]

It will deter people from wanting to play Allied - and that is in itself perhaps the single largest problem this mod actually has.

QFT

I think some of these axis fanboiis need to stop and think about how much fun they will really have if the allied population gets even smaller.

I'm not saying allies should be easier than axis but abilities which make the game less fun as allies really need to be looked at since they are unpopular already.

As it is, the treadbreaker right now is a decent ability that fits well within the frame or eir. whether it should be cheaper is another matter but it should not be buffed.

[CafeMilani]

treadbrakers aer meant to brake treads, stickies are meant to damage the engine -.-

How ya like that now??

[Smithy17]

For the last time - no one cares what the ability name is.

[scrapking]

treadbrakers aer meant to brake treads, stickies are meant to damage the engine -.-

How ya like that now??

Then I'm gonna say you have no clue about what the real problem is.

Your opinion no longer counts.

[CrazyWR]

Scrap, if you like your vetted tank so much, don't rush it in unsupported if you think they might have an ATHT there...its not that complicated.  You don't see Axis players rushing in tanks unsupported, because they know they'll run right into stickies and AT guns...if you keep the tank back behind a rifle screen or with an AT gun, it won't be that hard to repair it.  Treadbreaker does like 5% damage...

[OhSlowpoke]

Support your tanks? That doesn't even make sense. Of course it makes sense for allied rifles, because they have to get close, and toss a sticky, meaning the axis player can kite their tanks, and use infantry to clean the rifles off their treads, stickied or not. The ATHT can drive in, stay out of the range of rifles, or JUST within the range of supporting AT and infantry, disable your tank, and then fuck off? Seems shenanigans to me.

[scrapking]

I'm kind of sick of Axis whiners who want to cry for every possible advantage, without remembering that they are playing a MULTIplayer persistent game.

[CrazyWR]

Your bias is showing...

[Schultz]

I kinda like how the LATH performs now. It was too powerful before.
Its role now is significant anyway.
A little cost in resources tho would be nice.

[puddin]

People get fucking bitter and angry and argue and do some shady shit when their precious vet dies.  You simply cannot have one side with an ability that is well designed for vet-griefing, and not the other.  It will hurt the mod.  It will deter people from wanting to play against PE. It will deter people from wanting to play Allied - and that is in itself perhaps the single largest problem this mod actually has.

Personally I prefer if neither have it.  And for the record, my faction of choice is Axis.  I play alot of Allied games to 1) actually be able to play because so many people simply refuse to play Allied at all  - and I wonder why that might be?  2) to get a wider and more accurate view of balance.

Your whole basis for argueing against read breaker is Vet griefing?  Your being serious?  And how is that a "balence issue"

Scrap, ujnless your arguments are made for unit balence remove yourself from the discussion.  Its a game, your going to lose units, fact of life.  Just because you put more into it....Does not mean they are goign to survive every engagment. 

Oh, and if you spend 10 PP on a unit. and It gets tread Broken... And its unsupported, you deserve to lose it. 

How abotu we Think abotu ways to CHANGE thigns instead of just nerfing it. 

1.) Reduced Range on Tread Breaker.
2.) Pop cap increase on Tread breaker 2. 
3.) pop cap increa eon Focuse Fire 1. 
4.) Time between shots slightly increased. 
5.) Vet 2 Increases TB Range ( Sound familiar.)

Look, with this new launcher we don;t have to Argue about so much shit Do you all not understand that?  All upgrades can have mutiple levels of balence not just 1.  God Damn, pull your Heads out of your ass and wake up.   

[scrapking]

People get fucking bitter and angry and argue and do some shady shit when their precious vet dies.  You simply cannot have one side with an ability that is well designed for vet-griefing, and not the other.  It will hurt the mod.  It will deter people from wanting to play against PE. It will deter people from wanting to play Allied - and that is in itself perhaps the single largest problem this mod actually has.

Personally I prefer if neither have it.  And for the record, my faction of choice is Axis.  I play alot of Allied games to 1) actually be able to play because so many people simply refuse to play Allied at all  - and I wonder why that might be?  2) to get a wider and more accurate view of balance.

Your whole basis for argueing against read breaker is Vet griefing?  Your being serious?  And how is that a "balence issue"

Scrap, ujnless your arguments are made for unit balence remove yourself from the discussion.  Its a game, your going to lose units, fact of life.  Just because you put more into it....Does not mean they are goign to survive every engagment. 

Oh, and if you spend 10 PP on a unit. and It gets tread Broken... And its unsupported, you deserve to lose it. 

How abotu we Think abotu ways to CHANGE thigns instead of just nerfing it. 

1.) Reduced Range on Tread Breaker.
2.) Pop cap increase on Tread breaker 2. 
3.) pop cap increa eon Focuse Fire 1. 
4.) Time between shots slightly increased. 
5.) Vet 2 Increases TB Range ( Sound familiar.)

Look, with this new launcher we don;t have to Argue about so much shit Do you all not understand that?  All upgrades can have mutiple levels of balence not just 1.  God Damn, pull your Heads out of your ass and wake up.   

You just proved that you know plenty about RTS gaming, and yet nothing about persistent MMORPG gaming.

In VCoH, you are 100% correct.  In EIR:R you are 100% wrong.  I'm not even sure whose ass your head is up.

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.  And if you think it would not be used to vet grief, you are living in Delusionland.  If you are aware of that, but accept it, then you aren't getting the nature of fairness in persistent gaming.

Either way, your head is full of wrong.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Why should both sides get the same thing? Previously only the allies had engine damaging weaponry, axis didn't demand to have sticky bombs. It was part of the dynamic and reality of the game. Playing axis you didn't charge headlong into enemy positions because you knew of the risk. If your tank fights alone in EIRR, the risk WAS that you would lose the tank, I don't think that is really overly unfair.

[scrapking]

Why should both sides get the same thing? Previously only the allies had engine damaging weaponry, axis didn't demand to have sticky bombs. It was part of the dynamic and reality of the game. Playing axis you didn't charge headlong into enemy positions because you knew of the risk. If your tank fights alone in EIRR, the risk WAS that you would lose the tank, I don't think that is really overly unfair.

Because engine damage was never a death sentence to a tank.

Immobilization is.

Stop comparing apples and oranges.  I've explained at least a half dozen times why it is important that such an ability with the potential for vet griefing be under control.

Again, this is not about game balance.  In many ways a damaged engine is very similar to immobilize to the results of the game.  The difference is how each affects a persistent mod.  Forcing a unit offmap in any way possible is the same effect toward winning.  Destroying vehicles affects a player's long term goals in development.

Treadbreaker has too great an effect on unit destruction.

[MannfredvonRitter]

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.

You're wrong again. I replied to something you said and you didn't even remember you posted it. Failure.

I then made reference to the fact that engine damage ability was a one way street previously also and that no attempts to give it to axis were ever claimed made (that I'm aware). The game isn't symetrical in terms of balance like an MMORPG, it's the variety that makes the game.

[overfreeze222]

OK, give that to stickybombs then.

this woodnt make sence, becoause when u think about it a stick is just randomly plonked onto the tank, where as a treadbreaker shot is an shot aimed at the treads, (hence the name) made to immobilise. How many reports of a sticky bomb were there that have instatntly immobilised a tank, where as a well placed shot cood quite easily destroy a tread. Maybe, as an addition, give all ATG's this ability, as you wood think the crew wood have been trained in tread shots.

[AmPM]

Actually, that's exactly what sticky bombs were for. They would throw them into the running wheels on a tank, it would explode, destroying the running gear and prevent it from moving. Its not like they tossed them onto the engine deck to damage an engine.

[scrapking]

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.

You're wrong again. I replied to something you said and you didn't even remember you posted it. Failure.

I then made reference to the fact that engine damage ability was a one way street previously also and that no attempts to give it to axis were ever claimed made (that I'm aware). The game isn't symetrical in terms of balance like an MMORPG, it's the variety that makes the game.

Because you take one sentence of a paragraph, without the context of the entire paragraph, is "failure".

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.  And if you think it would not be used to vet grief, you are living in Delusionland.  If you are aware of that, but accept it, then you aren't getting the nature of fairness in persistent gaming.

Its not that "one side would have an ability".  Its that "one side would have an ability...that would be used to vet grief" - sic. 

Obviously each side has abilities the other does not.  Its that this one conflicts with the mod's persistent nature.  I've repeated this same exact sentiment too many times now, but that is the issue.

I am not debating how it affects the outcome of a game, I am debating how it affects the long term success of this mod.  One side would not be encouraged to develop high vet tanks because this ability exists.  Which begs the question as to why they would want to play against it?  Or why they would even want to play that faction, which is already horridly underrepresented.

Keep arguing pointlessly for something that will not be coming back.  If you want to simply focus on the AT HT doing more actual damage, or being a cheaper upgrade, that I can understand - perhaps even agree with, but this whole "return treadbreaker to its previous form" nonsense is shortsighted, selfish and fucking ridiculous.

And again, my preference is to play Axis, not Allied - but the ability is outright bad for this mod.

[UnderpoweredAll]

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.

You're wrong again. I replied to something you said and you didn't even remember you posted it. Failure.

I then made reference to the fact that engine damage ability was a one way street previously also and that no attempts to give it to axis were ever claimed made (that I'm aware). The game isn't symetrical in terms of balance like an MMORPG, it's the variety that makes the game.

Because you take one sentence of a paragraph, without the context of the entire paragraph, is "failure".

The issue is that one side would have an ability (with default vanilla treadbreaker ability) that the other side does not have access to.  And if you think it would not be used to vet grief, you are living in Delusionland.  If you are aware of that, but accept it, then you aren't getting the nature of fairness in persistent gaming.

Its not that "one side would have an ability".  Its that "one side would have an ability...that would be used to vet grief" - sic. 

Obviously each side has abilities the other does not.  Its that this one conflicts with the mod's persistent nature.  I've repeated this same exact sentiment too many times now, but that is the issue.

I am not debating how it affects the outcome of a game, I am debating how it affects the long term success of this mod.  One side would not be encouraged to develop high vet tanks because this ability exists.  Which begs the question as to why they would want to play against it?  Or why they would even want to play that faction, which is already horridly underrepresented.

Keep arguing pointlessly for something that will not be coming back.  If you want to simply focus on the AT HT doing more actual damage, or being a cheaper upgrade, that I can understand - perhaps even agree with, but this whole "return treadbreaker to its previous form" nonsense is shortsighted, selfish and fucking ridiculous.

And again, my preference is to play Axis, not Allied - but the ability is outright bad for this mod.

naaaah

I said it was too powerful before, but too weak now. It needs a change to be useful now.

[CafeMilani]

maybe 150 damage and damaging engine?
or 50 damga + damage engine with a chance to immobalize of 50%?