Pak cloak an annoyance!...again!

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[Smithy17]

It doesn't matter if camo netting reallt makes it harder to see stuff.

[Khorney]

if it wasn't cloaked while moving, or, if it was revealed after the first shot, it would be a much more reasonable piece of equipment.

[Malevolence]

If it moves while cloaked (or otherwise, but while cloaked it's slower and thus makes the noise for longer) it sounds like PaKzilla is on the loose - use your ears to locate it, then deal with it based on its approximate location. Artillery, manual searching, et c...

[Groundfire]

Im just tired of getting my 57's destroyed by cloaked paks.

It should be a vet thing. 1 shot @ vanilla, 2 shots @ vet1, 3 shots @ vet2, retail bonuses at vet 3.

Even the retail pro's agree that the shots before decloak should be less, but it's not a big deal in retail, and it is here where the repair rate sucks, and you cant just "build" another tank.

[Baine]

Im just tired of getting my 57's destroyed by cloaked paks.

It should be a vet thing. 1 shot @ vanilla, 2 shots @ vet1, 3 shots @ vet2, retail bonuses at vet 3.

Even the retail pro's agree that the shots before decloak should be less, but it's not a big deal in retail, and it is here where the repair rate sucks, and you cant just "build" another tank.

And people here can't spam Paks. So whats the point?

[Mgallun74]

just get rid of the cloak shit, problem solved, just give it to snipers.


jk.. who cares. only thing i dont like about cloak is when they are moving and being cloaked in middle of a wide open area with no cover..

[Scyntos]

just get rid of the cloak shit, problem solved, just give it to snipers.


jk.. who cares. only thing i dont like about cloak is when they are moving and being cloaked in middle of a wide open area with no cover..

Omg!!!!! I totally hate that with snipers too. We should totally just get rid of cloak all together!

[Malevolence]

It should be a vet thing. 1 shot @ vanilla, 2 shots @ vet1, 3 shots @ vet2, retail bonuses at vet 3.

Even the retail pro's agree that the shots before decloak should be less, but it's not a big deal in retail, and it is here where the repair rate sucks, and you cant just "build" another tank.

That's actually a pretty cool idea for the vet cloak.

[brn4meplz]

Even as allies I've never had a problem with PAK cloak, You eat a round into the frontal armour, yeah it sucks yeah it damages you. But if your committed to the attack your going to drive past it and might eat a second shot. Alot of players don't cover their PAK's with other PAK's thinking most people will drive backwards(and subsequently die) AND if you decided not to commit to the attack then you can easily back up a few units and out of range. Tanks are power and shock units, not front line fighters, they should be behind the main line or at least out of sight lines. SO that when you feel the critical moment to attack it has a more detrimental effect on your opponent.

There are situations where PAK's can be a nuisance but thats usually because the maps is choked as shit, not because the PAK is OP. So I'm still not seeing an issue here.

[RikiRude]

It should be a vet thing. 1 shot @ vanilla, 2 shots @ vet1, 3 shots @ vet2, retail bonuses at vet 3.

Even the retail pro's agree that the shots before decloak should be less, but it's not a big deal in retail, and it is here where the repair rate sucks, and you cant just "build" another tank.

That's actually a pretty cool idea for the vet cloak.

I gotta agree with this, sounds like a great idea.

[Smokaz]

So a lot of ideas have been proposed, although 100% agreement has not been reached. But the following is agreed upon I think regarding the PAK:

- It has no good or reliable counters
- Its extremely good atm
- A lot of people agree at least that its borderline OP

Proposed fixes:

- The sight range and two shots decloak
- Lowering the accuracy of the PAK against the jeep would be acceptable. Im thinking something like 0.2 accuracy against a moving jeep. 
- Tie the cloak to veterancy (its a good idea but once people get vet it will be exactly as hard to overcome the initial pakspam position

ITS NOT THE SAME SITUATION with the 57mm and the bike because the 57mm is possible to scout and find with regular units because it cant cloak.

Also:
Its not the availability or the price that needs to be touched, its the ability to counter it. And dropping arty randomly on somewhere you "think" you heard the PAK in the FoW is not a "counter". You can do that to any unit. Fucking around looking for green shields is not a counter either.

[Groundfire]

And people here can't spam Paks. So whats the point?

But the one's you do get rape holes into shermans, and even if an allied player can kill one, it can be recrewed, and your limited number of paks now have a reusable lifespan.

With 57's they just get blown apart by the cloak snipe, or being circled by the much heavier axis tanks. The 50% acc. reduction with ATG vs. ATG fights still leaves the 57 at a dissadvantage because the Paks get bonus accuracy from their first strike, and end up hitting anyways.

You cant just say "well destroy the paks and there's no problem" or "just commit to the charge with your tank and you can circle the pak" becuase we all know that is bullshit.

Players with half a brain cover their paks with other paks, and there's always gonna be shreck squads roaming around, or a P4 nearby to destroy that sherman that took 2 pak shots to try and circle.

You cant make the argument to protect an OP game mechanic on the basis that a "few" people that use it have limited game experience and dont have the forsight to cover a pak with another pak.

On another note, I like smoka's jeep acc. reduction idea and support it, but i feel that cloak tied to vet would suit the community better.

If you can get a pak to vet 2 then you deserve the power boost of 3 shot decloak. it's rewarding.

[brn4meplz]

Well judging from the proposed Vet changes maybe simply making the Pak get detected at a larger range is an easy fix?(they can apparently reduce stormtroopers get detected range-why can't they increase a Pak's get detected range?)


not sure if it's entirely possible but it's an avenue of discussion we havn't had, Ideally it'd be infantry and jeeps that would have the biggest chance, Would hate to see tanks seeing AT guns from range(cause if you've ever been in a tank you can't see shit)


Your naturally going to take losses when trying to attack a position, Just like you expect losaes in defending a position. It's a fact of warfare, just as it's a fact of war based games. I'm not saying you can circle strafe a Pak, but I'm saying you can drive past it, If you've thought an attack through and committed to it, and have the necessary resources to execute it(grenades/satchels/flamethrowers?) it's possible. It's about inflicting more damage to your enemy or taking vital ground to inflict further damage on him. If your tanks go past their Pak's sure they have schrek squads, but who says you have to stop and fight on his terms, thats why tanks are mobile. Keep driving, come from a different direction the next time. Also you should have supporting infantry or an ally should. He should be attacking at the same time. if the attack is successful then destroy the Pak's or recrew them to fight off the Panther you now know is hitting the field. Theres solutions to all of this but people seem to get focused on drive stop fight, or drive circle strafe.

[Malevolence]

My favorite suggestions are to remove the PaK's ability to move while camoflaged or to tie the shots/vision range to vet level.

This way if you want a PaK to be as good as it is now, you have to start paying PPs for it - PP cost for an AT gun definitely warrants it being a superior AT gun.

[brn4meplz]

This way if you want a PaK to be as good as it is now, you have to start paying PPs for it - PP cost for an AT gun definitely warrants it being a superior AT gun.

Would you also then be in favour of a cost reduction to M57 levels or less? I mean if someone has to pay PP to get it to it's normal level that would see fair, right? The munitions a Wehr would save on AT guns would mean more goodies. You gotta take alot into consideration before endorsing an idea

[AmPM]

You would also need to move 57 AP rounds to vet levels as well, why should you get upgrades to allow you to kill heavy tanks when we can't use paks for it.

[Groundfire]

Your naturally going to take losses when trying to attack a position, Just like you expect losaes in defending a position. It's a fact of warfare, just as it's a fact of war based games. I'm not saying you can circle strafe a Pak, but I'm saying you can drive past it, If you've thought an attack through and committed to it, and have the necessary resources to execute it(grenades/satchels/flamethrowers?) it's possible. It's about inflicting more damage to your enemy or taking vital ground to inflict further damage on him. If your tanks go past their Pak's sure they have schrek squads, but who says you have to stop and fight on his terms, thats why tanks are mobile. Keep driving, come from a different direction the next time. Also you should have supporting infantry or an ally should. He should be attacking at the same time. if the attack is successful then destroy the Pak's or recrew them to fight off the Panther you now know is hitting the field. Theres solutions to all of this but people seem to get focused on drive stop fight, or drive circle strafe.

of course i know you will lose operational fighting units if your trying to attack a position, but in most cases the tank that you bring along as support to fend off axis tanks/armoed cars/ flamenwerfs/ are mauled into submission in the opening moments of the engagement.

If your sherman stays to fight, it is easy prey for other AT. However you might not wanna lose your vet 2 sherman, and it needs to be retreated, and you lose your armored support.

Your tank is basically unoperable at this point, and in a mod with such low repair rates, it remains inoperable unless your axis and everyone is sporting repair bunkers, and a very important call in for your company is useless.

This is not the case with 57's being assaulted by tanks. From the first shot from the 57, enemy tanks can target it. If the 57 has 2 crew men left, or the gun has a sliver of health left, the return shot form the tank could destroy/decrew the 57. On the same note, if a Pak opens up under the same conditions, a sherman cannot fire back untill 3 shots have been fired or it gets decloaked by other means.

Untill offmaps are put into place, it's not an even playing field.

Allied players must bring much more to the fight. It's hard enough to avoid the firing cone of an invisible gun.
I'd know as much as anyone else being lv10 automatch retail, im competent at flanking with my tanks, but you always seem to stumble into the firing cone of a romulan AT gun.

[Smokaz]

Don't worry though, from what I've heard a change is coming. A lot of players depending on the PAK as a crutch are gonna fail(l) down like the one-legged pirates they are. People who support their pak properly wont notice the difference, I think.

[Groundfire]

You would also need to move 57 AP rounds to vet levels as well, why should you get upgrades to allow you to kill heavy tanks when we can't use paks for it.

Just checking, do you have to pay munitions, and have limited uses for your PaK AT gun power boost?

Afaik, cloak is free...

[Groundfire]

lol, im not worried. just in the mood for a debate.