Indirect Fire Discussion

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Smokaz]

Ah.. then its a dead discussion if they add supercharged rounds in next patch.

[Tymathee]

Ah.. then its a dead discussion if they add supercharged rounds in next patch.

when doctrine abilities are in, I'm sure they will. It will also make the mortar emplacement much more viable, since it's range goes from 75-120, which will then outrange both the mortar ht and wehr mortar (85 and 70)

Also, when counter-battery is in for the mortar emplacement, that'll make it pretty sweet.

[scrapking]

I'm not about to suggest any nerfs or removal of any artillery, but let's start with one thing in mind, that I think many people will generally agree with -

It is simply not fun to be artilleried to death all game over the course of the game - even if it is not necessarily a game winning strategy.  It's not fun to have your units eliminated from 100% to 0 when you aren't even engaged.  I'm sure that it is fun to impose that on your opponent, but the game is for everyone's fun, not just one side.

Furthermore, I'd like to add that over-proliferation (whatever point that is, I'm not suggesting we have actually reached it) of artillery leads to a very short life expectancy for various flavors of support units - which are already at this moment not entirely worth it to spend PP on to vet up.  With crazy amounts of artillery, frankly you are wasting your PP to vet up any kind of support unit, simply because they are so prone to being one shot.

Now I recognize that Allied artillery is the answer to superior axis mortars & paks for the most part, but let's also recognize that 5 Allied doctrines have doctrinal access to forms of heavy artillery whereas only 1 Axis doctrine does - which compels Axis to need to choose Scorched Earth (as a reinforcement doctrine) in order to compete.

Perhaps Mortars (of both factions), Stukas & Nebels (to some extent, StuHs as well) are too "available" to begin with, which then justifies Allied artillery in also being so available.  If Axis were not capable of proliferating those units, then the Allied need for the heavier counters would not be required to be as "spammable" as it is now.

But take my word for it, playing against several arty players, particularly several calliopes - while maybe balanced in terms of win and loss, is not enjoyable.  Expect to lose most of your company, especially support units, even though you might very well win in the end.

To be clear, I am not really talking about minimal artillery, I am talking about situations which arise because so many Allied doctrines have some form of heavy arty, leading to multiple artillery units being fielded at once.  It can get pretty obscene when you have 3 or more out at once.

And again, balanced, yes for the most part it is.  Fielding that much arty is sort of a handicap to actually winning.  I am talking about fun here.  I am talking about the desire to play the game.  About the enjoyment of developing a company and the feasability of vetting up certain types of units when there is an actual cost attached to it.

[Tymathee]

not fun for you, but fun for those with the artillery Im sure.

Also, i dont find nebels and stukas and especially paks very "fun" to have to contend with. Also, put in both mortars. That's not a very good argument for "fun" sakes because when you lose, it's not fun, unless the two sides were pretty even and it was an intense game. I played a game where both sides had a good amount of artillery in forms of hummel, priests, 25lbs, howietzer, stuh, mortars, mortar ht's, paks and it was a really fun game. The game can be however fun you make it. I played against someone who knew how to dodger artillery very well, everytime I fired, it seemed he knew where it would be and he moved his stuff and had minimal damage. now, if u dont know how to do that, then that's you. It's all in the game. I've learned how to dodge paks and nebels and stukas pretty well, doesn't mean they're not an annoyance. I dont know what to say 2 u scrap king about ur "fun" arguemenet maybe u just shouldn't play because in war, artillery is a huge part. Remember, the start of the Battle of the Buldge, the Germans used over 1,000 artillery pieces to "soften" up their advance.

[Blitzen]

I had a hummel, used it in 4-6 games.  Thing was pretty useless, I whiped my battalion to start over, to pick a different reinforcement.  Hummel missed alomst every single time with the first shot, and the next three shots hit empty ground.  I'm sure some will love it, but I found it pretty damn useless.  I tried killing a howie with it one game, fired at it 4 or 5 times, and I think I managed one hit out of all that, even scouting with kettens and stuff.  /shrug  not for me, good luck to those who use em though.  Risk/Cost!=Reward

[iggi]

not to get off topic;

but I find it odd that the priest 105 does 200 dmg with a 10.5cm main gun.

whilst the hummel, with a 15cm main gun also does 200dmg.
I guess zee germans shell thats 33% bigger was filled with honey.

Is there a reason for the different gun caliber's having same damage?

Can't say my expertise is worthy even as classifying by "expertise"; though in mine, I know very little about these weapons.  Only what I read and hear.

Cheers.

[scrapking]

not fun for you, but fun for those with the artillery Im sure.

Also, i dont find nebels and stukas and especially paks very "fun" to have to contend with. Also, put in both mortars. That's not a very good argument for "fun" sakes because when you lose, it's not fun, unless the two sides were pretty even and it was an intense game. I played a game where both sides had a good amount of artillery in forms of hummel, priests, 25lbs, howietzer, stuh, mortars, mortar ht's, paks and it was a really fun game. The game can be however fun you make it. I played against someone who knew how to dodger artillery very well, everytime I fired, it seemed he knew where it would be and he moved his stuff and had minimal damage. now, if u dont know how to do that, then that's you. It's all in the game. I've learned how to dodge paks and nebels and stukas pretty well, doesn't mean they're not an annoyance. I dont know what to say 2 u scrap king about ur "fun" arguemenet maybe u just shouldn't play because in war, artillery is a huge part. Remember, the start of the Battle of the Buldge, the Germans used over 1,000 artillery pieces to "soften" up their advance.

First of all, don't even flirt with including any "because in war" or "realistic" arguments here.  Don't insult my intelligence, or force me to insult yours by doing so.  Please don't tell me that I need to explain why that attempted rationalization is pathetic on so many levels.  You are either opening Pandora's box to change everything else about the game that is so grossly unrealistic, or ridiculing anyone with Military service by comparing the two.

Secondly, read my post again, and get your panties out of a knot.  I never said the units should be nerfed, or removed.  I explicitly mentioned that there were Axis units that are probably too abundant, and this creates the perception for additional artillery need by the Allies.  I understand this.  There are several units (Mortars, Nebels, Stukas, StuHs, and yes, probably PAKS as well.) which could stand to have lowered availability, I explicitly mentioned that Artillery are not the only ones.

I also mentioned that it was not the isolated artillery piece, it is when one player has multiple pieces, or multiple players on the same team have multiple pieces - i.e. "spam", where it gets obscene.  Specifically, Calliopes, to be honest.  But I'm sure it would be no less pleasant if there are some combination of 3+ Howies, 25lbers or Priests either.

Or for that matter, 3 Hummels... it is just less likely since only 1 Axis doctrine gets them by default, and every other one must choose Scorched Earth as their 30PP Reinforcement Doctrine.

And finally, dodging artillery depends on the artillery.  Stukas, Nebels, and Howies are relatively easy to dodge.  Priests you might not even have to try, they might miss outright.  Dodging Calliopes is another story though.  The projectiles travel at a lower trajectory, land faster, and saturate a larger target area better than pretty much any other form of arty - AND the platform is on a tank chassis, so it is much more survivable than other arty forms.

[Mukip]

The Hummel does more damage to tanks, I think either the Priest has a reduced damage modifier against tanks or it's the other way around with the Hummel.

[VaginaOfBravery]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

[gamesguy2]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

Stuka is pretty damn hard to take out though.  Even in EIR and the days of OBM M8/M10 hordes and the sky raining raid assault airborne my stukas survive most games.

[Khorney]

even an upgunned tetrarch needs 3 shots to down a stuka, and it's usually fast enough to get away after the 1st

[OhSlowpoke]

I'll give up my superior artillery when the axis gives up their superior and well versed everything (tanks, support weapons, infantry etc). Sure, it's not fair, or fun for the axis players, but neither is loosing every game due to the superior weapons the axis players have.

I mean, the allies have no response to weapons like Knights Cross(uber inf), Stormtroopers(cloaking double shreks?), or Tigers (not to mention King Tigers and Tiger Aces), it's only fair that we should be able to keep them on the run and plaster them with heavy artillery, in my mind.

[RikiRude]

not to get off topic;

but I find it odd that the priest 105 does 200 dmg with a 10.5cm main gun.

whilst the hummel, with a 15cm main gun also does 200dmg.
I guess zee germans shell thats 33% bigger was filled with honey.

Is there a reason for the different gun caliber's having same damage?

Can't say my expertise is worthy even as classifying by "expertise"; though in mine, I know very little about these weapons.  Only what I read and hear.

Cheers.

I was wondering the same thing, I assumed the Hummel had better penetration or something, or maybe does more damage to buildings? I don't know, but you think it would do like 250 damage or something. Althoughhhhh how much damage does a shell really have to do when it lands on soft targets 

[AmPM]

I'll give up my superior artillery when the axis gives up their superior and well versed everything (tanks, support weapons, infantry etc). Sure, it's not fair, or fun for the axis players, but neither is loosing every game due to the superior weapons the axis players have.

I mean, the allies have no response to weapons like Knights Cross(uber inf), Stormtroopers(cloaking double shreks?), or Tigers (not to mention King Tigers and Tiger Aces), it's only fair that we should be able to keep them on the run and plaster them with heavy artillery, in my mind.

As counters to those things try these, BARs > KCH, Jeep + BAR > Stormies, 57mm ATG w/ AP > Heavy tank. Get them down about 1/3 and sic the m10's one them.

[brn4meplz]

The only reason why Axis inf. appear stronger is because in Retail Vet 2 gives them Elite armour. In EiR it's not the case so rifles can still do good damage against grens. Pgrens without upgrades are just laughable so don't consider them mainline infantry. Also, did you know that a storm trooper squad is 300mp and 1 Schrek is 150 munitions and 1 MP44 upgrade is 120 munitions. to fully kit out a storm squad your looking at 1/8th your total munitions. Sure the impact a double schrek squad has might be significant, but so is the total effectiveness it drains from your army. Don't go saying axis get superior this axis get superior that, when it's clearly reflected in the cost of each unit.


Also relic changed the Mortar emplacement supercharge from 120 to 100 because 120 was too much, also they further reduced AT gun accuracy against each other

[31stPzGren]

Artillery is an essential part of the game.

Learn to avoid artillery or face its consequences. By nerfing artillery, you make fortified positions impossible to break and many players have played against my infantry company which I absolutely wire/sandbag/tanktrap up the entire sector.

Without artillery, it is very difficult to break stale mates without taking ridiculous amount of casualties. Even with artillery, a smart player will simply sit out all the incoming fire.

With regards to Onmap Artillery Fire.

Number of Shells.
In EiR, the first few artillery shells are the one which kills because of surprise if the player is not expecting it (usually). It is far better to have lower amount of shells fired per barrage but faster reload, granting you abundant artillery support as and when you need it.

High number of shells are only needed in breaking fortifications/buildings or special targets (repair bunkers, triages, stationary weapons) otherwise, they are a waste of time.

Artillery Spread
I think we should distinguish between two purposes of artillery. Precision and spread. When you are out to take out "high value" targets, you require precision shots, with shots landing with minimal delay.

When firing generally into a fortified area (i.e. lots of sandbags wire, enemy troop concentration), I would generally prefer a good random spread to cover the area well and also to prevent the enemy from "effectively" dodging.

Mobile Pieces vs Static Pieces
The Hummel (might be a little overpriced) & Priest (its quite fine as it is) are exceptionally useful pieces of artillery because they are able to MOVE and RELOCATE. The most important part about artillery is the "shoot & scoot" idea, which is what keeps calliopes alive compared to a howitzer.

The price is quite justified as they can easily move forward to suddenly bombard the enemy and slip away to some unknown part of the map or back to spawn area (though this is abit extreme). While the PP cost of the artillery unit is abit unjustified, I guess the idea is to reduce artillery spam though I think allowing 1 unit "in reserve" would hardly cause spam.

This increases their survivability and striking potential greatly.

What makes artillery OP?

Offmaps
The general idea of artillery being OP is mainly the 1 sec offmaps or offmaps without warning such as the strafing run and T4 arty call in. This makes it difficult to form a strong "fist" in attacking the enemy and requires you to form a "staggered line".

The problem of which allows a strong allied counter attack to break the offensive easily.

Calliope
The calliope is quite balanced until it gets dual rocket barrage. Each rocket has the potential to kill a few infantry per hit and the barrage covers a massive area plus it fires rapidly, killing infantry, ATGs and buildings alike.

If the dual rocket barrage is removed, the calliope is quite alright though still noticeably more powerful than conventional artillery due to its large volley, area saturation and damage potential.

In Closing
I think you a price decrease on the hummel and Priest is fine cause essentially they take skill and planning to use properly, such as only firing when the enemy is "fixed" in a certain position.

I think any decent EiR player scatters ALL their forces at the first sound of artillery fire, which makes artillery pretty impotent. The purpose of artillery is only to disrupt defensive lines, allowing a temporary lapse for the attackers to break through.

The alternative is to fire artillery in the heat of battle, such that the enemy are suitably engage and not moving about... which increases the chances of hitting significantly.

[VariantThirteen]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

Stuka is pretty damn hard to take out though.  Even in EIR and the days of OBM M8/M10 hordes and the sky raining raid assault airborne my stukas survive most games.

You must be kidding.

Last war, I had Elite Fucking Infantry run right through incredible defenses so they could Zooka/RR my vetted Stukas and Nebels.


What the FUCK kind of defence can an arty piece lay to elite, unsuppressable infantry who can spawn with AT weapons on top of it. (Or late on pure vehicle armies.)

Be serious, please. The Nebel and Stuka are both easier to kill than the priest, Hummel and Callie, probably slightly harder (not by much) than the 5pnder and Howie.

[Schultz]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

What the FUCK kind of defence can an arty piece lay to elite, unsuppressable infantry who can spawn with AT weapons on top of it. (Or late on pure vehicle armies.)

Ostwind!

[VariantThirteen]

The only artillery piece on both sides which causes me pain, is the calliope. Both the MHT, stuka, 105, priests etc can be taken out or dealt with somehow. The calli on the other hand is so fricking hard to dodge or take out.

What the FUCK kind of defence can an arty piece lay to elite, unsuppressable infantry who can spawn with AT weapons on top of it. (Or late on pure vehicle armies.)

Ostwind!

Damnit man, you caught me. I should jut keep an expensive piece of armour next to my arty at all times just so it can't be instagibbed by infantry who will the be able to participate in battle.

On that topic, even if AB dropped on an Ostwind, I think those who survived might kill an axis arty piece.

[Smokaz]

I think the calliope could have its vet requirements lowered if its survability was nerfed somehow, right now its tougher than all the other arty pieces and superhard to dodge.