How should we nerf the calli?

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[TheDeadlyShoe]

um smokaz, mysthalin is in favor of a slight calli nerf

and then there is the Stormtroopers that people allways mention, which in truth is a joke, cause of the MASSIVE shreck cost on them (not mentioning the recent shreck nerf - wtfs up with that?)

Stormies wern't changed. They've always had 150mun shreks.

[Mysthalin]

I don't know which part of double shrek you missed, but whatever.
I could give you dozens of replays where a single grenadier with a shrek would kill a calliope, as the last guy of the push against it, where every single support weapon for the calli had been raped.
I could give you even more replays where a cali being on the field, and it's support being not on the front lines, but in the back, supporting the cali, made sure of a loss of the calis team.
Alas, EiRR does not support the old replay, nor are they anywhere to be found on the interwebz. Guess we'll have to deal with it ^^.
No, a single 57 won't hold off a tiger ace, not even with a spotter(especialy since 57s have quite good sight range) and AP rounds. AP rounds are single use, last I checked, and AFAIK turning the gun instantly turns off the ability.

And yes, I am in favor of a slight calli nerf in terms of popcap, and have even put forward a logical reason as to why the calliope suddenly became OP and how it could be fixed, without changing how it performed in the vEiR enviroment, where it was a pretty well balanced unit - with DRR it would actually deal significant damage, but it came at a cost of being defeated by MIRA.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm starting to wonder if PE/brits should just be normalized to infantry armor types.

Definitely a can of worms, though...

[Mysthalin]

Wouldn't help vs the cali/other artilery ^^. Aparently, soldier armor helps them vs rifles and stuff, while making them prone to flames.

[Scyntos]

(Long-ass post here, but you people aren't worth the time)

[Mysthalin]

I don't think that's very nice scyntos.
Actually, you blatantly showed disrespect for everyone in the forums with that post, but to each his own.

[Scyntos]

Well.. it's true. I typed the big long post which had valid arguments.. wasn't flame.. had suggestions.. and it wasn't opinionated at all. But I thought to myself.. I'm one person in this sea of idiocy.. I don't matter.

That's when I decided that 1/4th of you don't know what you're talking about. A 1/4th of you only play axis. A 1/4th of you have never used a calliope in EiR:R. And the other quarter is just jumping on the nerf bandwagon.

Personally I want the thread locked until doctrines come out. Then we can re-bitch about everything.

[Mysthalin]

what about the fifth quarter?

Anyways, one that holds all others inferior, usually is.

[Scyntos]

How is there a fifth quarter in 25% of 100?

Hell I might be inferior.. but just look at yourselves.. listen to your arguments. You're arguing with each other for what? For the balance of 1 unit?

It's just not worth it. I'm sure you people would strangle eachother if you were within earshot. Thank god it's a forum.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Wouldn't help vs the cali/other artilery ^^. Aparently, soldier armor helps them vs rifles and stuff, while making them prone to flames.

Well yes. normalizing would require raising their HP.

PzG: 55 HP.  
Garand damage: 6. Shots to kill: 9
BAR damage: 2.8. Shots to kill: 19
Thompson damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 14
Enfield damage: 7.5 Shots to kill: 7
Bren damage: 2.5 Shots to kill: 21

Gren: 80 hp.
Garand damage: 10. Shots to kill: 8
BAR damage: 5.25. Shots to kill: 15
Thompson damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 21
Enfield damage: 10 Shots to kill: 8
Bren damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 21

as you can see, other than the Thompson and a lesser extent the BAR the units are almost identical, because infantry_soldier gives about 35% damage protection against small arms for the 35% reduction in HP.  But most explosive weapons (like calliope rockets) don't have any balance tweaking for infantry_soldier and so do 45% more damage (relatively speaking) than they would have to grenadiers.  Flamethrowers are in the same boat of doing the same damage to targets with less HP. 

[Smokaz]

Offtopic, but the thompson ignores the PG armor. Coupled with their low health, this is one of the reasons normal pgs stand 0% chance against thompsons in the open.

[NightRain]

Umm...

Why not increase Calliopes price?

I know Calliope is massive killer and all but why not increase its price to match up with Axis Super tanks? We are all aware that calliope is not a super tank but you can consider it as a super tank since it is more survivable and deals more damage. If we increase its pop normally to match up around 12 which is a basic tank requirement but its price up to close to match a King Tiger or close to Tiger Ace?

It is just me, this would make allies players to decide (few more Shermans or M10s or Calliope and very few other tanks)
This is what Axis players decide when they look at the big price of a big metal box called Tiger Ace or King Tiger or basic Tiger.

If Calliope costs close to a Axis super tank then you may ignore me I've always seen CAlliope- but on the barrels wrong side

This would respect EiR's habit to stay loyal to VCoH Stats

[BigDick]

it is kinda funny how people compare a piece of artillery (calliope) to a tank (tiger)

a tank does its damage on the front line and gets its damage meanwhile...where a piece of artillery does its damage without being under fire

that is actually why a piece of artillery has weaknesses to make it need for support behind the front line

the calliope is the only artillery that is heavily mobile with a heavy armor that give it the possibility to not need support behind the lines (other as people say) if there is some stuff send in to kill it, it is fast enough and survivable enough to bait almost everything into the kill zones

that is how its work

using a calliope means not to bring protecting units to your calliope it means to bring the calliope into the range of your protecting units

ps: and scyntos i used a 3 calliope company in EiR days

[Unkn0wn]

We will most likely be making a slight modification to the calliope in 0.0.4.

[CafeMilani]

Some of the bullshit I read here makes me laugh.

not laugh but puke..

what does 'slight modification' mean?!

[donnieDark]

I ask killer, I ask schultz.. I ask everyone. But nobody has a counter that doesnt involve any of these:

1) calli player being a noob
2) calli player being lazy
3) massacre of your own units to get it
4) insane rushes
5) luck

Your kidding right?  Storm troopers?  hell even camo'ed pak guns.  What i simply dont understand is how in vEiR callies died all the time and were 2x as powerful but no one gave a damn.  Do you really think the only time callies died was from rocket arty??   

Also Couldnt you apply any of those 5 things to lets say any skilled player with a tank?  Ever try killing any of Schultz's tanks?? It wasnt that the tanks were OP , it was that he was a skilled player.  The same thing applies for callies. 

[Smokaz]

In vEIR you dropped MI + RA on it while it was firing, and boom it was dead. This combo was overpowered as well. I kill schultz tanks like they were tanks becasue they ARE tanks, and even when I can't kill them I know how to hold them off with AT. Theres no way to stop a calli like a tank, I dont know why you would use such a retarded comparison. -.-

Also, if you just move the calli the moment the stormtroopers nail it with the first barrage, calli gets away and the inf support jumps the storms = 300 munitions gone and wasted. There is nothing you can do to stop this, other than bringing a blocking unit hoping this wont get spotted and then destroyed. (Cloaked bike! yay!)

This idea is just as superficial and short-sighted as the "double p4 24 pop rush" to get the 10 pop calli. It only works on lazy or stupid players.  Also, a p4 uses around 8 shots to kill a calli, not counting misses deflections and smoke popped.

[Killer344]

Conviction was also another hard counter for it.....

[Mysthalin]

Donnie makes a good point - it's not the cali that's OP or too survivable - it's the fact it's got that much support helping it, so a popcap increase would already be really useful.
If it's not doing that much damage to you, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to just have it there tying up enemy popcap. If you don't blob or camp down with a full host of support weapons, you shouldn't feel the calliope's vomit doing much damage at all. Personaly - I hardly ever bother to kill the calliope(other than going on a hunt with a panther), I rather kill off the jeeps scouting for it as the more powerful, yet more vulnearable part of the combination.
People keep mentioning that the caliope is both high HP and on a sherman chasis, and that it's got speed. But good sirs, think about what you're saying. The cali has a speed of 4. That means, grenadiers can keep up pace with it! Factor in the fact it has to accelerate to reach this speed, that it has to turn so it doesn't reverse away(thusly having lower speed), that it might fail at pathing and stop completely. P4s, grenadiers, anything catches up with it! Actually, a KT might even kill a calliope if it fails for but a second in front of the beast(heh, I loved cali hunting with my 2 KT company in one game while in a forest - the thing just barely ran away from the KT at 5 hp, then got shot by a pak ^^.)

MIRA only worked on DRR calliopes.

[puddin]

A cali is Completly usless if
1.) Your on the backside of a hill
2.) your in a building
3.) Your behind a headge, or building
4.) your not grouped tightly
5.) if it can;t see you


Its 10 pop cap right now, it was 9.  Yet its not that powerful.  Yes i have played against them.  Once they fire, Attack.

Its ARTILLERy.  Its going to kill trenched in units, its the sole purpose of it.  IT is also an ANTI blob unit.  IF u blob you die, Seperate some of your ment and sudden;lt a barrage may sting, but so does  every other unit in the game.