How should we nerf the calli?

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Killer344]

All it takes is one shrek hit to make fast repair impractical. If you can get an ATHT in, you can get a IHT in. Or a Hetzer, or a Marder.

If the owner of the calli is deaf, well yes you can do it :p.

[VariantThirteen]

Funny that, suddenly I don't just need to rush in and Treadbreak it, but I need to perform a small combined arms attack on it, from concealment, without my opponent knowing what is happening, or having suitable counters around anyway using his extra pop cap from it.

This is what we're talking about - unlike any other arty in the game, the fucking thing requires some kind of nuts suicide move to even make it less effective, let alone kill it.

[Scyn]

I think I'd disagree with that.. the Nebel is in a similar boat.  But the problem with assaulting axis indirect fire is that you can't see a vast majority of their units which may be protecting it due to stealth.

[CafeMilani]

It will actually take 486.5 HP, not 447.32, with the "average" chance, which is not that prone to happening. And if 149.5 is too much to take down afterwards(a single pak shot is enough to kill it with the 1st strike modifier as it will put the calliope into red HP where it has a chance to crit it into death/destroyed engine)

u just try to evade the fact that the calli is too strong. stop this. this is an observation.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I treadbreak Callis while landing a few other hits to slow it down pretty often. I'm not sure why people are saying it's impractical.

In fact in my experience they are more vulnerable to immobilization than normal. Probably just coincidence.

Treadbreaker is not a reliable counter, nor a knock out blow, but it does work.

In fact I have a game replay upright now where a calli got immobilized by TB and destroyed. Although it managed to get a good salvo off while immobed, the bastard.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8669.0

[DarkSoldierX]

Don't nerf Americans Callies, not until you add in the real doctrine's so were on a even level THEN you can put some nerfs on it.

[Mysthalin]

Aloha, It is pathetic that people are trying to find reasoning as to why the cali is OP right now, when in EiR noone complained about them even though they could either repair themselves(very important factor) or have twice the rockets fired. One added even more survivability, the other kept the survivability at the same position, yet maximised it's usefullness - even at maximum range it would destroy more than they do now at point blank. Add that to the fact it cost 9 popcap to field those days, when it costs 10 pop to field right now.

The claim that it is supperior to every other artilery in the game is true, but maybe that's a problem with the OTHER artilery, not the cali? I mean, you'll find no use for a hummel or a priest most of the time, they're just popcap whores - and you don't even need to have a calliope to come to that conclusion.

It does die when caught, and if the enemy manages to respond to your attack on it - he outplayed you. If he didn't, you outplayed him. I just lost a game against something as simple and basic as support weapon spam today - I wasn't prepared to tackle it with artilery(having none), and I got outplayed by nice useage of mines so I couldn't flank properly either. The fact I couldn't kill a 3 HMG 4 pak and 4 mortar line doesn't mean it is absolutely blatantly OP(well, I could, but it would just get recrewed) - no, it dies to artilery, and it was my fault for having none.

[Sach]

I love how the "side" trying to downplay the neccessity of nerfing the calliope will compare it to supertanks, light vehicles and mortars.

Everything but the other artillery in the game seems like a valid item of comparison.

Maybe because if you DO look at the calliope in the light of the other artillery, you see how insanely powerful, easymode and survivalfest this unit is.

Yeah but if you start doing direct comparisons someone will bring up

30cal/vickers to mg 42
pak to 57mm/17 pounder
axis mortar to allies mortar

etc etc and then theres a world of trouble.

[Killer344]

Aloha, It is pathetic that people are trying to find reasoning as to why the cali is OP right now, when in EiR noone complained about them even though they could either repair themselves(very important factor) or have twice the rockets fired.

They did, not so much like now, but there´s quite a few threads about it in those days.

[Unkn0wn]

Note that the calliope had a higher population value pre-EIRR

[Tymathee]

Note that the calliope had a higher population value pre-EIRR

uhh, what? i thought the callie used to be 9 pop in eier and is 10 pop in Eirr???

[Unkn0wn]

There was a time when it was 14 pop AFAIK .

[Tymathee]

ahhh. i think 10 is fine imo. it's still a pretty good pop and since it's artillery, it usually stays on the field a while so having a high pop would really weaken the player using it imo. As someone pointed out, the allies need the arty they have, its the only real advantage they've got over their counter-parts.

[BigDick]

ahhh. i think 10 is fine imo. it's still a pretty good pop and since it's artillery, it usually stays on the field a while so having a high pop would really weaken the player using it imo. As someone pointed out, the allies need the arty they have, its the only real advantage they've got over their counter-parts.

what you think is irrelevant

you have to compare this to other artillery in the game and the best thing to compare to is the priest and the hummel

both are slower have less hp, much worse armor, higher cooldown and have more pop then 10 and does much less damage (never saw a priest or hummel with 40 inf+tank kills in eirr)

this sums up to make this unit clearly broken
most broken unit in the game

[Mysthalin]

No, this sums up to that the priest and hummel are absolutely titty-fucking useless, not that the cali is too powerful, as I stated a few posts back.
Comparing the calliope to the other artilery is UNVIABLE because the other artilery sucks ass. If you want all artilery to suck ass, then you may ask for a nerf to the cali. I'd rather ask for buffs on the other artilery, as they actually need it.
Have you ever seen an allied mortar with 40+ kills? I've seen axis mortars with 60 kills, because they hit far, and they hit hard - VERY hard. That doesn't mean the axis mortar is the most broken unit in the game, though - it's just better than the allied counterpart.
Maybe it's time for you to accept that most axis units are supperior to most allied units? Calliope is a nice Tie-them-up.

[VariantThirteen]

No Myst, your logic is titty fucked. Every single other arty piece in the game follows that same rules: High burst damage output, vulnerable (either by being slow or just skinny), long range.

The Cally is the only one that disobeys these rules by not being vulnerable. The other arty pieces aren't titty fucking useless, they fill a niche and don't define the battle the way a cally does.

A cally IS the battle it's deployed in. If it is not neutralised, the allies will out attrite the Axis EVERY FUCKING TIME. If you try and kill it, you require the alignment of planets and a goddamned luna eclipse because of how little pop cap it takes, it's off the fucking hook armour, and speed, all an order of magnitude better than any comparable arty.

The difference between the cally and every other unit in the game is that the cally has no serious drawbacks, no serious counters, and several extreme strengths.

The argument is done to death. Of fucking course you can kill a cally - at the end of the day it's just a Sherman that needs to be thousands of units away to kill. At the end of the day it only has finite armour and HP, and at the end of the day human error can cause it's speed to not become a factor. The point was never that it's unkillable, or that it single handedly wipes out armies, as the defenders of it seem to want to make out, but rather that it takes TOO MUCH to kill, and kills TOO MUCH itself without SUFFICIENT risk.

It is TOO STRONG, not SV_INSTANTWIN 1.

EDIT: And yes Myst, we did complain. Every fucking game there was a Cally in, we would complain on vent. Allied players would normally agree with us that the cally was too strong after the game, or in chat. We didn't vomit crap on the forums because there was a major update coming, and because there were a few counters to it (admittedly they were really stupid and lame - pretty much the sole purpose of MI/RA and V1s became to kill Callies because nothing else could, and they excelled at that task). The Calli has been widely acknowledged as too strong for quite some time, along with other things we did bitch about like oversupply, air superiority, subversion and the levels of mindless spam that allied players could put up, all of these are absent at the moment either by fixes or omission, but the Cally soldiers on.

And yes, judging these units in a Doctrine vaccuum probably seems silly, but more likely the doctrines will be balanced by the strength of units, not vice versa. It may be that subsequent doctrine additions will benefit units that can kill callies so much more than callies that the whole thing will work out. But then, it may not, and we might have to resort to more intuitive balancing.

[Mysthalin]

Yet again I am for a slight nerf to it - but blatantly put, I'm really dumbfounded - people did not complain about calliopes, other than "you just point and click" failing to notice that the only time the calli was really effective was if the enemy was "point and click'ing" with a blob or not even clicking with support weapon spam.
And yet again I'm for a popcap cost boost to 12, but I'm only in this thread because certain people are posting in it, and insulting other people. They are also, simply put, biased noobstomping assholes who do not deserve their rights to post(I, and everyone else, probably, know the duo I'm talking about) - but they're making their oppinions aired. If noone comes along to reply to their faulty logic, it would only mean everyone is OK with it.
Yet again, what I said stands - the cali isn't OP because every other arty fails, but it SEEMS OP because every other arty fails. Yes, it doesn't follow the common rules of mobile arty - it can survive more hits than they do.
The cali does not deal quite that much damage unless it is shooting at either support weapon spam, or blobs - if the enemy isn't doing any of the mentioned tactics, the cali is just not worth the popcap cost.
And yes, the other arty (hummel and Priest) DO fail. They fill NO niche, they just blatantly fail, and the fact they can't define a battle(or get more kills or do more damage than a mortar does) means they're fail, not that the cali is somehow OP. If mortars do more damage than Priests do, the mortar is OP? It's also exceedingly hard to kill a mortar HT if it has a single shrek squad in support - the tetrarch will target the infantry over the HT, and other tanks won't be able to keep up. Infantry will get suppressed by HMGs, and will be outrun. But the mortar HT isn't OP, even though it costs just 6 popcap, and is also quite hard to kill(albeit having less HP than a cali, it has better targeting priorities against it, and better speed). Same for a stuka.
So first of all, buff the hummel and priest - they need a LOT of love, both of them. I've tried both, and they're just not viable, not begin a circle of fucked up balance by first nerfing the cali. Or are we missing ucross?

[SyKoFanTlvl2]

Yet again, what I said stands - the cali isn't OP because every other arty fails, but it SEEMS OP because every other arty fails. Yes, it doesn't follow the common rules of mobile arty - it can survive more hits than they do.
The cali does not deal quite that much damage unless it is shooting at either support weapon spam, or blobs - if the enemy isn't doing any of the mentioned tactics, the cali is just not worth the popcap cost.

Myst... fail... the Wermacht is BASED on very effective but SLOW units, like the MG/Mortar/Pak gun, all of these things are utterly RAPED by a Calli, which as ive allready stated my oppinion about, is very close to being invincible, unless u base ur whole army around killing Callis.
Which means that the "low" damage, which really isnt that freakin low, ends up killing at least 1 support weapon PER barrage, which as a MINIMUM is 270mp 40mun, tell me again thats not worth the popcap ? ESPECIALLY since they put a MAX on the MG's/Paks/Mortars an army can field.

I agree some people are being ridicilously biased on both sides, but like ive said before, doesnt excuse it being fucking IMBA.

Btw. "calli being the only useful arty" ? IF the rest of the arty pieces in the game were as ridicilous as the Calli, why would u ever want to buy anything else? 3*Iwinbutton = GG?

[Smokaz]

Whether to make all artillery as powerful as the calliope - or the calliope as weak as the others - is a design decision, not a balance one. That one artillery piece is out of line with all other artillery pieces similiar to it in the game - is a balance issue. As it stands now you keep confuzzling the issue here mysthalin. Like when you are saying "comparing the other artillery to the calliope is unviable because the other artillery sucks ass" it just becomes weird to read, thats already a comparison

[Scyn]

I don't know why you guys still bother debating this.. There's really no telling what doctrine abilities, resource bonuses... off maps will bring to the table. All of said things could possibly bring balance to a lot of the game, but you're too impatient.. you want results now. So just continuing to bicker back and forth does nothing. If I were a dev.. I'd read this thread and find it amusing.. but also think to myself that they have no idea what's coming, therefor we're not changing anything until they see the full game.(Which I would totally support.)

I could just start a bunch of balance threads for no reason, but someone out there would respond regardless and everyone would either jump down my throat about it.. or back me up.. and then the next person will counter it.. etc etc.. it just goes on and on. Should save your breath for when balance matters.