0.0.4 Changelog

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[DasNoob]

enjoy.. please pay attention to the bottom where it says we are aware of NEEDED price changes.

[BigDick]

17pounder:  Something needed to be done. Maybe 80 range will play out nice but it needs a price increase now. I think the problem now will be the regeneration it gets when moving. It is now place far enough back to avoid most direct attacks + it is out of range of mortars and nebels/stukas will not kill it in a single barrage. The regeneration will make it “unkillable”.

funny thing is that there is not even a theoretical PE counter to a 17ppounder+bofor for its 8 pop together

i had to lol about this changelog

[Mysthalin]

Pauli, I urge you to try commandos. They seem to suck just as much as they did previously

[Two]

Pauli, I urge you to try commandos. They seem to suck just as much as they did previously

commandos suck more tbh, they just run around full squad no health but deal hardly any damage now, though piats and tets make up for it.

[BradAnderson]

17pounder:  Something needed to be done. Maybe 80 range will play out nice but it needs a price increase now. I think the problem now will be the regeneration it gets when moving. It is now place far enough back to avoid most direct attacks + it is out of range of mortars and nebels/stukas will not kill it in a single barrage. The regeneration will make it “unkillable”.

funny thing is that there is not even a theoretical PE counter to a 17ppounder+bofor for its 8 pop together

i had to lol about this changelog

Hummel, Mortar HT, At nades and Incinary nades and if u want using infantry to over run them.
Please STFU and spend about 30 seconds to overload your miniscule brain before posting in a balance thread, Kthxbye noob.

[BigDick]

17pounder:  Something needed to be done. Maybe 80 range will play out nice but it needs a price increase now. I think the problem now will be the regeneration it gets when moving. It is now place far enough back to avoid most direct attacks + it is out of range of mortars and nebels/stukas will not kill it in a single barrage. The regeneration will make it “unkillable”.

funny thing is that there is not even a theoretical PE counter to a 17ppounder+bofor for its 8 pop together

i had to lol about this changelog

Hummel,

without being forced to go a special doctrine build for this common combination

Mortar HT

70 range 17 pounder 80 range.... even with mortar HT would be 71 range it would "theoretical"

, At nades and Incinary nades and if u want using infantry to over run them.

get raped by bofor especially with its additional range

[CommanderHolt]

Then put the Mortar HT behind a house or a Hedge and yes the 17pdr does out range the Mortar HT, but it still can't shoot through building and indestructible landscape.

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

[CafeMilani]

Then put the Mortar HT behind a house or a Hedge and yes the 17pdr does out range the Mortar HT, but it still can't shoot through building and indestructible landscape.

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

yes, theoretically, now whats about the practical part?

the mortar ht will get overrunned by tommies, killed by 25pdrs or howitzers, etcetc

[Unkn0wn]

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

Like RTC eh

[Malevolence]

Honestly I think the 17 lber needs some kind of fragility increase now.

The way we've tooled about with the 17 lber is like this - it was okay, but too expensive and immobile, so you guys sped up its mobility and made the crew less fragile to make it more like a traditional AT gun.

I approve wholeheartedly of the new direction (to make it a less mobile but more powerful gun) to give Brits their own "thing", but the problem is not only that it is very well ranged (which, again, I think is actually a good point for the 17 lber to have to it), but it has retained the mobility and toughness buffs from earlier in production. They are currently a standoff range weapon with the toughness of a support gun and mobility of one, too. 88 can't pack up and move around, it doesn't heal itself without veterancy, either (the healing doesn't bother me too much, but we can't kill it while it does it!). I call 17 lbers pocket 88s, but in a lot of respects they're superior to the 88 - tougher and mobile with a similar, if not exact, effective range... but the 88 is a doctrinal (and more expensive by a bit) weapon. I don't think the 88 needs a buff, in the right hands it's pretty strong, but the 17 lber, if it is going to retain its new found abilities as a standoff range weapon, cannot retain its abilities to move with the rest of the army so efficiently.

Theoretically speaking you have about 25 seconds while the 17 lber is vulnerable due to the unpacking mechanism, but realistically speaking no axis player can actually TELL when the 17 lber is unpacking itself. This means there's a 15 second window of opportunity during which you have to somehow close 80 range and then kill an emplacement before it builds, which even with a Panther just isn't possible (despite its speed, and even an MG, it cannot close the range in time to shoot the emplacement before it goes up). Further, the crew is untargetable, so shooting them is also not an option.

The MG nest suffers from this problem as well, but it's less pronounced because it can't move. The thing is I don't want a 55 range emplacement to be able to set up in front of two squads of volksgrenadiers, that just doesn't make sense! I'm all for making them powerful in a new and different way, but things like the setup time make them a bit too well-rounded and there is no real trade off for the fact that 17 lbers have 80 bloody range and as much penetration as an 88.

So, I propose a reduction in the speed with which emplacements set up by maybe 5 or 6 seconds, maybe 2 or 3 more seconds for the MG since admittedly it can't move around anymore.

[CommanderHolt]

Then put the Mortar HT behind a house or a Hedge and yes the 17pdr does out range the Mortar HT, but it still can't shoot through building and indestructible landscape.

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

yes, theoretically, now whats about the practical part?

the mortar ht will get overrunned by tommies, killed by 25pdrs or howitzers, etcetc

That's what the Mortar HT speed is for right? To get away?

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

Like RTC eh

Well that's just problem with your maps Unknown

All maps somewhat lean towards one faction or another as unless you are commandos, Brits suck in heavy urban areas. (lack of mobile weapon support to garrison into buildings and lack of space for emplacements.)

[SaintPauli]

Unless you are playing some theoretical flat map, there should be some cover you can exploit to take down the 17pdr.

Like RTC eh

Well that's just problem with your maps Unknown
 

Unknown just considers flanking cheap tactics…

[MistenTH]

Skirts changed to their beta value:  I like this change but it has a MAJOR effect on efficiency of hand held AT against skirted tanks. This should be reflected in prices. First of all the skirts themselves need a price reduction since their effect has been lowered. Second: The Bazookas and PIATs has a 1.6 damage modifier against P4 and 1.5 modifier against Panthers.  This was lowered to 0.5 with the old skirts. The new skirts gives 25% less penetration and damage but the damage modifier is kept at 1.6. Effectively this means that they now do 240% dam and 25% less penetration on a P4 with new skirts in comparison to a P4 with old skirts. The price of the Bazookas and PIATS needs to reflect this.

How are you getting 240% more damage?

Bazooka base damage: 75
1.6x multiplier: 120
old skirts (50% dmg reduction): 60
new skirts (25% dmg reduction): 90
new skirts (weighted average with 25% less penetration, 0.15 deflection multiplier): 71

% increase in damage for bazooka: (71-60)/60 x 100 = 18%

Without 1.6x multiplier
Bazooka base damage: 75
old skirts (50% dmg reduction): 37.5
new skirts (25% dmg reduction): 56
new skirts (weighted average with 25% less penetration, 0.15 deflection multiplier): 44

This is without factoring in the original 45% penetration chance on the pz4, or the accuracy of the bazooka. Piats have been improved, but I haven't seen the new Piat in action yet.

And if there's any issue with this damage, it's with the 1.6x multiplier. Which I recall reading in some vCoH changelog somewhere that this damage bonus against the Pz4 is getting removed.

[MistenTH]

Skirts changed to their beta value:  I like this change but it has a MAJOR effect on efficiency of hand held AT against skirted tanks. This should be reflected in prices. First of all the skirts themselves need a price reduction since their effect has been lowered. Second: The Bazookas and PIATs has a 1.6 damage modifier against P4 and 1.5 modifier against Panthers.  This was lowered to 0.5 with the old skirts. The new skirts gives 25% less penetration and damage but the damage modifier is kept at 1.6. Effectively this means that they now do 240% dam and 25% less penetration on a P4 with new skirts in comparison to a P4 with old skirts. The price of the Bazookas and PIATS needs to reflect this.

How are you getting 240% more damage?

Bazooka base damage: 75
1.6x multiplier: 120
old skirts (50% dmg reduction): 60
new skirts (25% dmg reduction): 90
new skirts (weighted average with 25% less penetration, 0.15 deflection multiplier): 71

% increase in damage for bazooka: (71-60)/60 x 100 = 18%

Even just talking about damage:

% = (90-60)/60 x 100 = 50%, but with 20% chance to penetrate Pz4 from front

Without 1.6x multiplier
Bazooka base damage: 75
old skirts (50% dmg reduction): 37.5
new skirts (25% dmg reduction): 56
new skirts (weighted average with 25% less penetration, 0.15 deflection multiplier): 44

This is without factoring in the original 45% penetration chance on the pz4, or the accuracy of the bazooka. Piats have been improved, but I haven't seen the new Piat in action yet.

And if there's any issue with this damage, it's with the 1.6x multiplier. Which I recall reading in some vCoH changelog somewhere that this damage bonus against the Pz4 is getting removed.

[SaintPauli]

Misten you stats are wrong. I said 240%dam. That is original dam + 140%. Not 240% more.

Bazooka base damage: 75 - 1.6 multiplier
No skirts: 120
Old skirts (0.5 dam multiplier): 37.5
New skirts (25% dam reduction): 90
90dam is 240% in comparison to 37,5dam…

[TheDeadlyShoe]

you can't possible run the numbers without looking at penetration.

[SaintPauli]

you can't possible run the numbers without looking at penetration.

Off cause I can!

They do 240% damage and penetrate 25% less that is an average of 180% more damage (+ the extra dam on non penetrating shots) Overall they do around twice the damage.

Now I use fireup and shoot you form behind where the extra penetration modifier doesn’t matter…

[acker]

Fireup allows infantry units to move faster. It doesn't give infantry units the ability to teleport.

And, yes, try adding in penetration.

[SaintPauli]

And, yes, try adding in penetration.

I just did???

[MistenTH]

Misten you stats are wrong. I said 240%dam. That is original dam + 140%. Not 240% more.

Bazooka base damage: 75 - 1.6 multiplier
No skirts: 120
Old skirts (0.5 dam multiplier): 37.5
New skirts (25% dam reduction): 90
90dam is 240% in comparison to 37,5dam…

My stats are NOT wrong. We are just presenting similar data in different ways. Plus your statement compared old and new skirts, not with no skirts. You are also using 37.5 damage, which assumes a 1.0x multiplier, meaning none, which is pointless, because it's always been 1.6x.

Effectively this means that they now do 240% dam and 25% less penetration on a P4 with new skirts in comparison to a P4 with old skirts.

This is also one reason why I hate % based statistics, you don't get a feel for the real damage.

If you are just comparing damage only between NO skirt and NEW skirt, then 240% sounds really impressive. What it really means in terms of killing:

Damage only (shots to kill)
No skirts: 5
Old skirts: 10
New skirts: 7

Damage and Penetration weighted average (shots to kill)
No skirts: 10
Old skirts: 19
New skirts: 21

Damage and Penetration and Long range accuracy weighted average (shots to kill)
No skirts: 27
Old skirts: 54
New skirts: 60