Pak38, the Root of All Evil

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[AmPM]

I use a set of $40 dollar USB headphones. They let me do it just fine.

[DasNoob]

Really?  I mean come on guys... this isn't a new unit.

If arguments are to be believed, they've got to be based on reality... and saying that the pak can only be killed reliably by arty, or tank rush.... just makes you look like a polemic arguing blindly.

Anyone who has played Axis knows that the Pak isn't the godly unity you are trying to paint it as.  You are not going to sway anyone to your way of thinking with arguments like the above.

[Mysthalin]

I've never said the pak is godly or uncounterable. IMO, as I've stated dozens of times, the pak could be fixed by just reducing the LOS to standard infantry LOS(35 units) when it's cloaked. If you still got paksniped on your ATGs or emplacements, it would be because the werh player is actually playing better than you and utilising a spotter, or being a retard and charging your front line with paks.

[gamesguy2]

Really?  I mean come on guys... this isn't a new unit.

If arguments are to be believed, they've got to be based on reality... and saying that the pak can only be killed reliably by arty, or tank rush.... just makes you look like a polemic arguing blindly.

Anyone who has played Axis knows that the Pak isn't the godly unity you are trying to paint it as.  You are not going to sway anyone to your way of thinking with arguments like the above.

Can anyone here say with a straight face I don't play axis?

Me and Malevolence were known as the freaking "pakmen" in EIR.  I know exactly how retardedly good they can be.   I have more axis games in EIRR than allied games even.

Properly utilized, the standard pak+ 2x MG+ mortar+ some kind of supplemental AT is retardedly difficult to beat except by using arty.  And arty is just too hit and miss at times.

AMPM your argument is full of holes.

You can't use infantry, MG suppresses them, and the pak won't reveal itself by shooting.   You can't use mortars, because the pak is invisible.  Even by listening all you can tell is the general location within about half a screen where it is.  You can't pinpoint it without using the stupid cover glitch, which also takes forever to do.  You advocate using tanks against an AT gun.  Sure if you overrun the position it can work.  You can't flank an invisible AT gun if the other guy has ears and can hear your godzilla tank driving around the flank.

Why does the pak need to be so much better than the 57mm?  Why does it need to be able to snipe AT guns while remaining cloaked, snipe emplacements while remaining cloaked, and scout for itself and the MG covering it while cloaked?  

[gamesguy2]

I've never said the pak is godly or uncounterable. IMO, as I've stated dozens of times, the pak could be fixed by just reducing the LOS to standard infantry LOS(35 units) when it's cloaked. If you still got paksniped on your ATGs or emplacements, it would be because the werh player is actually playing better than you and utilising a spotter, or being a retard and charging your front line with paks.

Ya but the problem is.  Having a spotter doesn't help.

You can't spot the pak from 60 range, and it can just shoot twice and then stop, wait 10 seconds and if you haven't moved do it again.  There is no other unit in the game that can fire more than one shot and remain cloaked.  NONE.

[Mysthalin]

= Sapper Piats in cloak(up to 4 shots from each PIAT before uncloaking)
= Fallschirmjaegers (4th shot decloak).

so you're a teency wee bit wrong ^^.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Remove accuracy boost on camo shot.

* fixes PaK domination of light vehicles
* fixes supah snipe shot

[DasNoob]

Really?  I mean come on guys... this isn't a new unit.

If arguments are to be believed, they've got to be based on reality... and saying that the pak can only be killed reliably by arty, or tank rush.... just makes you look like a polemic arguing blindly.

Anyone who has played Axis knows that the Pak isn't the godly unity you are trying to paint it as.  You are not going to sway anyone to your way of thinking with arguments like the above.

Can anyone here say with a straight face I don't play axis?

Me and Malevolence were known as the freaking "pakmen" in EIR.  I know exactly how retardedly good they can be.   I have more axis games in EIRR than allied games even.

Properly utilized, the standard pak+ 2x MG+ mortar+ some kind of supplemental AT is retardedly difficult to beat except by using arty.  And arty is just too hit and miss at times.

AMPM your argument is full of holes.

You can't use infantry, MG suppresses them, and the pak won't reveal itself by shooting.   You can't use mortars, because the pak is invisible.  Even by listening all you can tell is the general location within about half a screen where it is.  You can't pinpoint it without using the stupid cover glitch, which also takes forever to do.  You advocate using tanks against an AT gun.  Sure if you overrun the position it can work.  You can't flank an invisible AT gun if the other guy has ears and can hear your godzilla tank driving around the flank.

Why does the pak need to be so much better than the 57mm?  Why does it need to be able to snipe AT guns while remaining cloaked, snipe emplacements while remaining cloaked, and scout for itself and the MG covering it while cloaked?  

Wait combined arms works?  If i have a position with AI/AT/Backup AI/Backup AT you'll have a hard time getting me out of that position unless you use arty??

Sounds fair to me!

[gamesguy2]

= Sapper Piats in cloak(up to 4 shots from each PIAT before uncloaking)
= Fallschirmjaegers (4th shot decloak).

so you're a teency wee bit wrong ^^.

My sappers and the sappers I've gone up against always decloaked after the first shot...

FSJ with FG42 fire 4 shots in like half a second, not exactly the best example.

[gamesguy2]

Wait combined arms works?  If i have a position with AI/AT/Backup AI/Backup AT you'll have a hard time getting me out of that position unless you use arty??

Sounds fair to me!

Exactly my point.  This combo doesn't work for Americans does it.

57mm+ 2 30 cals+ mortar+ sticky rifles or say RR airborne.

What happens?  The wehr player brings his pak up and pak snipes your 57, then come in with a tank.  So how come wehr doesn't need heavy arty to take down American support spam, where as Americans do to take out wehr support spam?

[AmPM]

Say it with me, "An ATG does not need to be in the front line all the time". I keep my 57mm's back, and use rifles to lure in tanks. Once stickied/buttoned its a dead tank.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Sappers work inconsistently. I understand the problem has something to do with them turning.

Wait combined arms works?  If i have a position with AI/AT/Backup AI/Backup AT you'll have a hard time getting me out of that position unless you use arty??

Sounds fair to me!

Support spam is bad gameplay. It seems like every game features more mortars and artillery pieces.

Say it with me, "An ATG does not need to be in the front line all the time". I keep my 57mm's back, and use rifles to lure in tanks. Once stickied/buttoned its a dead tank.

Yeah in that case we should just take cloak off PaKs and tell everyone who complains they're playing wrong.

On that note you do need to keep your 57mms close to the front to prevent tanks from using blocking terrain to snipe MGs.

[gamesguy2]

Say it with me, "An ATG does not need to be in the front line all the time". I keep my 57mm's back, and use rifles to lure in tanks. Once stickied/buttoned its a dead tank.

You are assuming your opponent is stupid enough to get within sticky/button range why?

If the ATG is far back enough that paksniping can't get at it.  I can bring in a tank, pop a couple of shots off at your forward MG, and then back off and send in infantry.  Or simply move my entire defensive line up and force you to fall back.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Lol.  Um, I guess that kinda shows that the reason you have to keep the 57 up is based on experience. 

[BigDick]

now i know what some people want

they want make cloak useless by cutting down the sight, that everyone will use paks uncloaked for fighting and only cloak when the big blobs rrush the guarding units (hmgs) and praise that they will not find it

they want see about half a screen that there is a pak38 to call priest, 105, calliope, 25pounder, or just rush in with cheap tanks from a different location to mostly 2-3 shot a pak38 with shermans, cromwells...

in hope wehr will blob shreks to steamroll them with their own all round blobs

[MannfredvonRitter]

60 range ATg, 40 range tank, ATG 20 behing HMG can fire at tank.

To paksnipe must be within 40 of HMG, HMG has 45 range.You can now get the tank and protect your HMG. Not to mention that axis tanks tend not to rambo rush anyways.

VICTORY.

[gamesguy2]

60 range ATg, 40 range tank, ATG 20 behing HMG can fire at tank.

To paksnipe must be within 40 of HMG, HMG has 45 range.You can now get the tank and protect your HMG. Not to mention that axis tanks tend not to rambo rush anyways.

VICTORY.

HMG has only 40 range, and the pak can fire two shots without revealing itself, wait 10 seconds, and do it again.

Also who said anything about rambo rushing? 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It's not as much a matter of range as much as it is a matter of angles.

[Sach]

now i know what some people want

they want make cloak useless by cutting down the sight, that everyone will use paks uncloaked for fighting and only cloak when the big blobs rrush the guarding units (hmgs) and praise that they will not find it

they want see about half a screen that there is a pak38 to call priest, 105, calliope, 25pounder, or just rush in with cheap tanks from a different location to mostly 2-3 shot a pak38 with shermans, cromwells...

in hope wehr will blob shreks to steamroll them with their own all round blobs

cutting down the sight would only prevent paks unsupported from taking out emplacements and tanks from beyond their sight range and invisible, seems fair to me.

[DemonicTruism]

Oh come on, what are Axis meant to do with emplacements? Butt our heads against their longer range and superior damage? A bofors and a 17p next to each other force attrition, which is really homo. If we had some nice callies and howies, it might be different, but we don't, so it isn't. Emplacements slow the game down too much already.

Paks are to emplacements, as snipers are to Mgs - a necessary evil.

Edit: This is VariantThirteen, sorry, didn't realise I was on this account.