Balance à la Popcap

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[Ununoctium]

Balancing on Popcap

With popcap units of the same power have the same popcap, for tanks its based on their infantry equivalent.
It seem that all popcap decisions boil down to one thing: riflemen, grens, and volk are 5 popcap and eveyrhting else is based off of that.

So:
the new units that have been added into EiR:R need to be popcap balanced off of this system.
Therefore one of the key changed would be: Regular British infantry sections are increased to 6 popcap.

Lets look:
25 pop start = 4 infanrty sections vs 5 grenadiers.
Balanced fight? Yes.
Balanced with upgrades: Yes.

One note: in order for this to work best it might be required to make the Lt 2 popcap, if infantry sections take up more.

Question to you: should the piat upgrade increase sapper popcap to 5?

[Schultz]

I made the exact suggestion on pop up increase for tommies, but as for sappers i think what they need most, is increase in price cost, mp and muni for upgrade, and also a tweak in their performance, cause right now we all know they wtfpwn anything vehicle and infantry.
Hopefully whatever anti-blob measures will be taken will limmit the need for spamming 

[Smokaz]

I think tommies versus grens is fairly well balanced as 5/5, but I have a problem with PGs being 5 pop tbh because without MG reinforcement package PE infantry doesnt have a chance against british infantry in a 1v1 engagement.

PE doesnt have any force multipliers like assault nades, medikits or supression for their infantry. Slow, incendary nades and g43s feel almost pointless to get against tommies with brens and riflenades. British infantry murder PE infantry without breaking a sweat.

Pzgr3n seemed to think that there is a bug in damage tables of pg inf against brits.. I dont know what he meant, but could this be possible?

Problem is that if you drop PG squads from 5 to 4 pop, you create a problem against americans were pgs are very balanced against rifles for pop.

Another problem is how panthers suck because of their high pop.

[sgMisten]

PZGs have alright health, the issue is their default KAR has pathetic damage compared to the grenadier KAR.

[Malevolence]

Better than the volks KAR.

[Bubz]

The more you buff PE vs brits the more you nerf U.S. vs PE as smokaz said.

[Dnicee]

You maybe have a point but still a U.S jeep can take about two shots from a pak and i mean what about the PE Inf HT almost the same there i think? I think PE is a joke atm (at least their armor)...

But okay dont buff them just nerf the brits alot then.

[jackmccrack]

Weapon upgrades will never increase the popcap of a unit.

[Mysthalin]

Yet again, you give tommies too much credit.
4 tommies would lose to 5 volks, let alone 5 grenadiers, even without upgrades. And with upgrades, it would be a no brainer insta-pwn against the tommies.
Not to mention the fact people don't play with pure gren/tommie companies.

[jackmccrack]

Yup, without upgrades and officers, Tommies are just weak damage sponges.

[Tymathee]

dnicee jeeps dont take 2 shots from a pak...in my game-play, all it needs is one. are you still thinking about the old scouting jeeps?

as for balance ala pop cap...i diunno. Sappers are a weird discussion. The piat atm is pretty powerful for a unit that's so cheap. I think if the devs really decide that because the sapper is still basically an engineer unit and should stay at the pop it is (still the most expensive engineering unit out there) the piat needs a price raise so it's not spammable anymore. Right now it's a little bit better than bazooka's and about the same as rr's, the only differnece is RR's are more accurate but piats because of arc even though they're inaccurate get more rear shots.

may i make a suggestion of making piats 150-180 muni instead of 85?

2 zooks = 90
2 rr's = 165
1 schreck = 120 (2nd 130)

so, when we try to balance price, if going by my suggestion that they're almost as good as RR's as an at weapon (almost because of poor accuracy) then I'd have to say 150 muni is a fair price, especially since tommy upgrades are so expensive. putting it at 150 would pretty much half the amount of sapper piat squads you'd see in british companies and you'd see more sapper used in other ways like you know...repairing, or demo charges (which need to be changed to be able to be used everywhere to be really useful imo, for all demo charges)

[GamerAndy]

You should try labbing some fights between Grens and Tommies - in our tests we found that Grens and Tommies were almost 50/50 when fighting each other so have recently pulled the pop on tommies from 6 down to 5 - It seems like Tommies are alot better than they actually are, but they're just not the uber that everyone makes them out to be.

[RikiRude]

I honestly think (although I bet it would be a big undertaking) the best thing to do is to change pop cap COMPLETELY give it an over haul.

Right now what is the difference between all heavy tanks? 1 pop cap each, which is silly. I think we need to make starting pop cap 50 and ending pop cap 80, and we need to redo pop cap for everything. That way the super tanks can have a difference of 5-10 pop cap between each other. The problem is most of the units pop cap works quite well for how things are atm, so you'd be doing this big change only for like all together 10 units. But it also allows you to balance everything else with pop cap to a much larger degree. Right now everything has a basic pop cap, and you balance it by changing its MP, MU, and FU, you don't usually balance it with a pop cap increase or decrease, or at least when you do, it doesn't seem to make a big impact. By giving everything a larger scale making those pop cap balances should have a bigger impact.

[AmPM]

The only problem with PE is the fatality rate in IHTs. Its retarded, I think in the 5 games I have played I have had men live through it once! At this rate they are worse than useless or completely overpowered. VS AT it means your men die before they can dismount due to instakaboom. VS no AT they can kill off 5-6 Rifle squads no problem.

Revert IHTs.

[simbigboy]

Unfortunately, the instakaboom also applies to unupgraded British Bren carriers.

[Killer344]

Unfortunately? Thanks god I´d say..

[MannfredvonRitter]

The only problem with PE is the fatality rate in IHTs. Its retarded, I think in the 5 games I have played I have had men live through it once! At this rate they are worse than useless or completely overpowered. VS AT it means your men die before they can dismount due to instakaboom. VS no AT they can kill off 5-6 Rifle squads no problem.

Revert IHTs.

That would go a long way to helping them. They need proper survival with the current HTs and they may be balanced.

[RikiRude]

I think instead of changing the armor on the IHT they should of simply given it a health boost.

[31stPzGren]

Pzgr3n seemed to think that there is a bug in damage tables of pg inf against brits.. I dont know what he meant, but could this be possible?

What I meant is that, I noticed that the G43s does PATHETIC Damage over all. I was fighting against a Vet 2 Rifle and a Vet 3 Ranger at medium range. They were in OPEN exposed and without cover. I had 1 unvetted PGs + 1 unvetted Assault Gren, 1 G43, 1 STG44 in HEAVY cover. I focused fire on the rangers. It barely dealt any damage to them.

In many games I played, the G43 dealt neglible damage and really feels odd. It just can't deal out much damage compared to other weapons like BAR or even MP40s!

There was once where my brits were fleeing and getting their ass handed to them at short-medium range by 2 groups of Assault Grens (MP44) but then again, you're talking about about 280 munitions worth of firepower... which still didn't really kill my troops that fast.

You should try labbing some fights between Grens and Tommies - in our tests we found that Grens and Tommies were almost 50/50 when fighting each other so have recently pulled the pop on tommies from 6 down to 5 - It seems like Tommies are alot better than they actually are, but they're just not the uber that everyone makes them out to be.

Gamerandy has a point. The thing about Tommies in vCoH, if you still use Soldier Army, is that they perform about as well as a volksgrenadier squad, albeit with abit more HP.

A short trip to the CoH-stats revealed that the weapon is indeed about the same, with a slower rate of fire.

In Conclusion

The balance in EiRR is quite screwed over right now because;

1. Popcap is different from vCoH
2. Prices are very very different from vCoH
3. Soldier armour has been changed

vCoH tried to balance the difference between the infantry of each faction by having different armour types. Taking that away, means a big change in the unit's performance.

For example, the Ostwind deals 40 damage per shot, but the difference between infantry soldier armour and infantry armour, is that it has a 0.9 damage modifier against soldier armour.

There may be more drastic modifiers for other weapons.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

You do realize that makes the Ostwind more effective against Tommies than previously.