pak price

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[AmPM]

So the PAK gets to cloak, and has free AP rounds currently in its bonuses. Downside, has to stay still to use the cloak and get the bonus.

57mm does less DPS, can never cloak, and costs the same with AP rounds purchased.

6pdr costs the same as the base 57mm, does not provide cover, but can cloak.

Marder costs a lot, has good mobility, range and damage, and dies epically to AT or a BAR squad with sticky on its ass.

Seems like its all pretty even.

[panzerjager1943]

We've improved the functionality of Pak cloaking for the next patch. It should reliably turn while camo'd, and will not require to be still to cloak; however, when cloaking, it will not be able to move. It will still require to be off of roads.

Also, all those AT guns seem balanced, except that the Marder costs twice the pop and is just about as effective as a single AT gun.

[CafeMilani]

We've improved the functionality of Pak cloaking for the next patch. It should reliably turn while camo'd, and will not require to be still to cloak; however, when cloaking, it will not be able to move. It will still require to be off of roads.

Also, all those AT guns seem balanced, except that the Marder costs twice the pop and is just about as effective as a single AT gun.

pop decrase+ atgun accuracy decrease against marders while locked down

[Illegal_Carrot]

Just revert the PaK to the way it was, but reduce it's movement speed by 50%, and increase its 'revealed' radius by a small amount. Now the PaK can reposition a small distance away/turn while cloaked, but it can't be used as a spotter/infiltrator/sniper (which I've never seen done anyways). Keep the price the same, despite the speed nerfs implemented.

But if you guys are 100% set on disallowing all cloaked-PaK movement, a price reduction is needed. 380MP 110MU, which was mentioned before in the thread, sounds about right.

[Mgallun74]

Just revert the PaK to the way it was, but reduce it's movement speed by 50%, and increase its 'revealed' radius by a small amount. Now the PaK can reposition a small distance away/turn while cloaked, but it can't be used as a spotter/infiltrator/sniper (which I've never seen done anyways). Keep the price the same, despite the speed nerfs implemented.

But if you guys are 100% set on disallowing all cloaked-PaK movement, a price reduction is needed. 380MP 110MU, which was mentioned before in the thread, sounds about right.

only if the 57mm comes with ap rounds!  remember, even thou it isnt cloaked while moving, the pak 38 still has them nice AP type cloak shots and well still can be cloaked.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Just revert the PaK to the way it was, but reduce it's movement speed by 50%, and increase its 'revealed' radius by a small amount. Now the PaK can reposition a small distance away/turn while cloaked, but it can't be used as a spotter/infiltrator/sniper (which I've never seen done anyways). Keep the price the same, despite the speed nerfs implemented.

But if you guys are 100% set on disallowing all cloaked-PaK movement, a price reduction is needed. 380MP 110MU, which was mentioned before in the thread, sounds about right.

only if the 57mm comes with ap rounds!  remember, even thou it isnt cloaked while moving, the pak 38 still has them nice AP type cloak shots and well still can be cloaked.

The PaK's cloak is better for dealing with Allied vehicle spam, while the 57's limited-use AP rounds are better for dealing with once-per-game Axis heavy armor.
Half the reason for PaK cloak is the damage/stat boosts you get from the first shot, and the PaK needs those boosts to have even a comparable DPS to the 57mm. If you give the 57mm unlimited AP rounds, not only are you practically giving them cloak (free first-shot damage bonus with unlimited uses), but you also increase their DPS to such an extent that the PaK becomes useless in comparison.
The whole point of Axis heavy armor is that not much can penetrate their thick armor; if you negate that armor with AP rounds, then Axis heavy armor will become useless (the Panther, for example, only has ~100 more HP than the Sherman. It's the Panther's armor that makes it so tough, not extra HP or anything else).

[Mgallun74]

i just think cloaking and walking is goober... cloaked while stopped and in sometype of cover cool, but in open areas, roads etc blah... whatever lol.

[Malevolence]

Make the PaK decloak itself after one shot, it's a simple fix to the problem of "pak sniping" The pak as a gun is not overpowered, it's the ability to snipe at tanks while invisible consistently that makes it very hard to counter. Once it starts to be aggressive it needs to reveal itself like the sniper does, simple and effective.

[CafeMilani]

Make the PaK decloak itself after one shot, it's a simple fix to the problem of "pak sniping" The pak as a gun is not overpowered, it's the ability to snipe at tanks while invisible consistently that makes it very hard to counter. Once it starts to be aggressive it needs to reveal itself like the sniper does, simple and effective.

thats it. nothing else.
@male:  i didnt mention it because they wont do this anyways

[Unkn0wn]

We actually have considered that very extensively.
That being said however, one of the problems was also that people were using PAKs as scouting units when they shouldn't be. And simply getting rid of its recloaking after shots wouldn't fix this.

[chefarzt]

Yeah again. Scouting units. Why i never thought bout that. The pak recon squad.Supooerted by .
A PAK.

[CafeMilani]

there are much more allied snipers which are scouting than axis snipers because axis sniper is fucking bullshit...
when guys use it to scout, just let them do, its very risky but dont make such changes..

btw, all my threads have always more than 50 posts..for a good reason

[AmPM]

I would like to say, that the reduction in scout paks is an indirect nerf to my Allied AT capabilities. I was able to rely on capturing 1-2 scout PAKs a game, and now its much harder.

Please reintroduce PaKzilla with 1 shot decloak instead. I need more captured ATGs.

[Malevolence]

We actually have considered that very extensively.
That being said however, one of the problems was also that people were using PAKs as scouting units when they shouldn't be. And simply getting rid of its recloaking after shots wouldn't fix this.

If you're scouting with a PaK your opponent has to be deaf to not hear PaKzilla moving around nearby. I'd scout with PaKs on occasion, but never with my line too far behind.

Honestly I'd reduce vision by 10 units while cloaked (prevents your scouting concern), then make them decloak after one shot (prevents assassin paks even if they do get within range). That is the perfect PaK right there in my balance book.

[CafeMilani]

We actually have considered that very extensively.
That being said however, one of the problems was also that people were using PAKs as scouting units when they shouldn't be. And simply getting rid of its recloaking after shots wouldn't fix this.

If you're scouting with a PaK your opponent has to be deaf to not hear PaKzilla moving around nearby. I'd scout with PaKs on occasion, but never with my line too far behind.

Honestly I'd reduce vision by 10 units while cloaked (prevents your scouting concern), then make them decloak after one shot (prevents assassin paks even if they do get within range). That is the perfect PaK right there in my balance book.

-10 sight range while cloaked is not a good idea imho because ull need another scout to get sight on it (when ur defending e.g.)
it should just be like it was always, i dont understand why its so "uber" now

the only change u SHOULD do is pak sniping: paks and atguns must not be able to shoot each other-> accuracy 0

[AmPM]

No, they should be able to hit each other, NOTHING should be unable to hit something else. Why is the PAK Uber right now? Because it gets the bonuses for First Strike for 3 shots. It hurts like an SoB.

I still think 1 shot decloak would be fine, oh no, a scouting pak....seriously? Its at the bottom of my list of feared things the PAK could do.

[CafeMilani]

ok 1 bonus shot i agree but remember, it does only 115 dmg (ATGun 150dmg)
if u "scout" with a pak u mean let me go 10 metres, otherwise they will see it
thats not scouting, u may see a hmg but u would also see it when moving ur troops forward for a look

[Illegal_Carrot]

We actually have considered that very extensively.
That being said however, one of the problems was also that people were using PAKs as scouting units when they shouldn't be. And simply getting rid of its recloaking after shots wouldn't fix this.

The changes I suggested (much slower cloaked movement speed + larger 'reveal' radius) would effectively eliminate this, while still allowing the PaK limited mobility.

It's PaK infiltration/sniping that's the problem (apparently, though I've never seen it before), not the PaK's ability to reposition/turn while cloaked.

[CafeMilani]

We actually have considered that very extensively.
That being said however, one of the problems was also that people were using PAKs as scouting units when they shouldn't be. And simply getting rid of its recloaking after shots wouldn't fix this.

The changes I suggested (much slower cloaked movement speed + larger 'reveal' radius) would effectively eliminate this, while still allowing the PaK limited mobility.

It's PaK infiltration/sniping that's the problem (apparently, though I've never seen it before), not the PaK's ability to reposition/turn while cloaked.

hmm maybe..
but it really does silly noises in FoW, u cant hear them easily so it just needs 1 change: after 1 shot decloaked.

[Akranadas]

It has nothing to do with people scouting with Pak Guns, It has everything to do with Pak guns being able to reposition and avoid combat with magic camouflage.