The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[3rdCondor]

+range and received penetration to start with...

I understand the call for a range buff, but I would suggest trying just a received penetration buff first and then seeing how that helps. I do understand your point though.

[Tymathee]

range would be a bad buff for a tiger unless you make it's long range accuracy like 50%, cuz theres no way a tiger with that large of a splash should be able to fire that far.

It would also effectively nullify its weakness to tank destroyers since they can't out range it.

sure they can still strafe but getting off that shot before the tiger can shoot is a big bonus, especially when chasing.

[Smokaz]

It would also effectively nullify its weakness to tank destroyers since they can't out range it.

1v1 a hellcat/m10 can just circle and kill a tiger, how much weaker does it need to be?

Supported, the tiger is still facing a too large spectrum of units that can penetrate/bounce damage it too much.

[Tymathee]

1v1 a hellcat/m10 can just circle and kill a tiger, how much weaker does it need to be?

Supported, the tiger is still facing a too large spectrum of units that can penetrate/bounce damage it too much.

did you read what was after that line or did you just stop there and laugh "lulz tim is stupid"

sure they can still strafe but getting off that shot before the tiger can shoot is a big bonus, especially when chasing.

going 1 v 1 full health isnt' the only way to use a tank destroyer; chasing it down, using it as part of a swarm of AT, and even sniping at a tiger from range are ways of using a tank destroyer.

If you make the Tiger the same range as a M10 and M18, then you will get shot at the same time as the tiger and not be able to fire at the Tiger without being shot at.

It also makes it have +10 range over any handheld AT (35), puts it closer to the 60 range of an ATG (instead of +20, its +15) so that makes it will engage an ATG that much quicker.

Also like I have said, if you think you have to buff the Tigers range, you need to buff the Pershings range as well, they're the same class of tank and at 45 range the Tiger which already beats a Pershing 1 v 1, will severaly outclass it.

[Smokaz]

going 1 v 1 full health isnt' the only way to use a tank destroyer; chasing it down, using it as part of a swarm of AT, and even sniping at a tiger from range are ways of using a tank destroyer.

100% agree - and these methods mean that we are attacking from a wide angle

i will explain what a angle is to you



this is an angle - the turret or the tiger rotates slowly, so that when you are using said methods the tank destroyers easily get off "potshots" without being targeted by the tiger - its what makes them so strong vs it, since they more or less always penetrate it

[tankmaster23]

 the pershing is ok right now the Tiger is not...

[AmPM]

Tym won't be happy until a Sherman can kill a Tiger without needing to upgun.

Tiger could use the range buff, and not be OP.

Same goes for Pershings and STuGs.

[Tymathee]

Like when they say "Scoreboard" in sports.
Leaderboard.

Pershing's in top 20
6 M26 Pershing rolcsika0128 rolcsika0128 3 611
8 M26 Pershing EagleontheSky hans 3 531

Tiger's in top 20
1 Tiger HoaxReborn SnoOp 3 1332
3 Tiger Estoc AmPM 3 687

/sarcasm

Oh look, one of them is AmPM's!

and oh look, HIS Tiger has more xp than the highest XP pershing and the top Tiger is #1 on the leaderboard and has double the XP of any pershing!

There is clearly something wrong with the Tiger and AmPm has a lot of issues with them, so fix it pl0x! Buff the Tiger!

/endsarcasm

[AmPM]

I've also had a 1700xp KT. Easy when you are trying to farm XP on a unit.

Obviously, going by the leaderboard, the 1300xp Jumbo should cost as much as a Tiger right?

And those 600XP+ Rangers should be at least 500mp.

[smurfORnot]

yea Tym,  leadboards actually shows how unit performs 

[aeroblade56]

tankedit: Unrelated remarks removed. User banned from Balance discussion

[dailydose]

As I total newb who loves the Tiger to pieces and has deployed it for about 11 games of 16, I'd like to comment on where I see the Tiger, as well as its short-comings as a new player. I am a completely green player, so please take everything I say with a large grain of salt.

I see the Tiger as a breakthrough tank, giving much-required mass in an offensive so that you can advance your infantry to capture territory. It is the center-piece in a push against the enemy: gibbing infantry, blowing up houses, and nailing enemy tanks. The Tiger is in front and centre in the attack, meaning it must be tough because it will get wailed on by every available enemy AT asset on the field. The Tiger must also be supported by infantry, atg, and mortars so that its shock effect isn't wasted. This is a job that no other Axis tank can do, in my opinion, except maybe the King Tiger. Thus, the Tiger as the breakthrough tank should be its niche, and its stats should be designed around that role, instead of trying to get the Tiger to ape its cousin: the Panther.

As much as I like the Tiger, it still has some issues in the game, so I'd like to comment on them.

First of all, I definitely think the Tiger's range should NOT be bumped up to 45. Although the Tiger is slow, it is still faster than infantry so you can kite them quite easily just by reversing, and extending the tiger's range would make Allied infantry absolutely horrendous, while also making many allied med. armor completely ineffective. Out of pure greed, I'd like to see the range bumped up to maybe 42, but that's just me being selfish--I can live with 40 range.

The slow turret speed can be somewhat offset by Panzer Ace, as well as facing the Tiger towards the enemy trying to turn on you, so I think turret speed can remain the same.

Moving accuracy is a thing that can be compensated by player halting the Tiger before it shoots. After awhile, you acquire a "tempo" for the tank, so I think it is more an issue of familiarity than balance. Although I'm a greedy %&#$ and would like moving accuracy to be about 55-60 instead of 50.

What I would definitely like, however, is for the Tiger to have lower frontal pen--especially from ATGs--and have more resistence to bazookas. Because the Tiger has a short range, it really needs to lean into the enemy during the attack, meaning that it is more prone to being fired upon by ATGs/bazookas than the Panther is. Since it is, by game mechanic, going to be hit in higher frequency than the Panther, the Tiger should have a lower pen rate compared to the Panther in order to compensate, both for the lowered speed and much shorter gun range. Rear penetration should remain the same, or be lowered just a tiny sliver by .01-.02--again, me being selfish.  

I would also like to see a nominal hp boost, say 70-140 points so that the Tiger is more resilient compared to the Pershing. The Tiger only has 74 more hp than the Pershing--which is a small difference in tank combat I feel--while the Pershing has greater top speed, faster-turning turret, can gib infantry better, and with HVAP, it becomes a heavy-tank destroyer able to hunt panthers by closing on it at top speed and wailing away.

I think that as it is, the Tiger is a solid platform, but one that needs great care to be effective. Lowering frontal pen and nominally increasing hp would make the Tiger do its job better as the breakthrough tank without unbalancing the game. The lowered pen and health increase would balance the Tiger against the Panther and Pershing not by having the Tiger ape their capacities, but by allowing the Tiger to perform its niche role more effectively, whereas an aping balance-fix such as speed/range/damage increase might make everything fubar.

[Hicks58]

You know, in the context of the Tiger being a breakthrough tank, I can't help but accept you make a VERY valid point.

However, I have to put forward food for thought:

What about those that use the Tiger as a support piece rather than a breakthrough tank? Using your Tiger as the back-line clutch for your infantry/support weapons to pull back to in a pinch also works effectively. This makes for a creeping advance rather than a breakthrough but it is still effective. Importantly to note, such a playstyle exposes the Tiger to less fire... Reduced incoming penetration would make the Tiger extremely strong in this role.

I suppose a part of the Tiger's problem is that it's a generalist tank in a specialist mod. EiRR has made everything sharper and more defined. Generalist units only shine if they are cheaper than their specialist counterparts (Sherman compared to M10/M18 for example). The Pershing becomes specialist throughout doctrines be it endurance with USK/Vet 1, staying power with combat repairs, AT duty with HVAP or mobility with mobile warfare. The Tiger receives no such late game specialisations and simply becomes even more generalist as the doctrines progress.

I suppose there is three possible ways to go about changing the Tiger.

1. As Dailydose suggested, to put it in the role of a breakthrough unit, decrease incoming penetration vs ATG's and handhelds.

2. To put it in the role of a support unit, increase it's speed slightly and it's acceleration moderately.

3. To retain it's generalist slot (God forbid I'd ever find myself saying this)... Reduce it's price in fuel.

It is important to note that it's raw offensive power is fine as it stands and should not be touched outside of doctrines - Changing this will inevitably break the unit.

[dailydose]

You know, in the context of the Tiger being a breakthrough tank, I can't help but accept you make a VERY valid point.

A very high praise, considering who it is coming from.  

However, I have to put forward food for thought:

What about those that use the Tiger as a support piece rather than a breakthrough tank? Using your Tiger as the back-line clutch for your infantry/support weapons to pull back to in a pinch also works effectively... Importantly to note, such a playstyle exposes the Tiger to less fire... Reduced incoming penetration would make the Tiger extremely strong in this role.

I think on this particular case, reduction in pen for the Tiger doesn't change much, if anything at all. We discussed it on Vent, but again, let's examine the sniper-Tiger combo, where you use a sniper to bait enemy infantry and gib the rushing inf. with the Tiger stationed at the back. In cases like this, decreased pen would have zero effect since the infantry would never get into bazooka range, because the Tiger would just reverse as the infantry came forward. If the Allies send anything fast, like a Staghound or a bike, decreased pen in the front still has no effect because these fast, light units can't hurt the Tiger from the front to begin with. I think in most cases where Tigers are used as a fall-back, the decreased pen would have very little effect because of the weak nature of the enemy coming at it.

If the Tiger was being used as a punching bag to push back a major offensive, it would still need the decreased pen I suggested because of its short range and slow speed. Because of the short range, even when the team is on defence, the Tiger naturally ends up "counter-attacking" the enemy thrust, because it needs to lean into the enemy's attack to gib the oncoming infantry, chase off attacking armor, and destroy enemy support/indirects. In this case, the distinction between defence and breakthrough is very blurred, since by counter-attacking, the Tiger is naturally attempting to breakthrough the enemy attack. This means that the merits of decreased pen in the attack applies for the defence as well. Furthermore, reduced pen would not unbalance the Tiger on the defence because since it needs to push into the oncoming enemy attack to be effective, the enemy will be able to get side-shots in easier--and if the Tiger comes in too deep, it'll be too slow to back out and be killed. And if the Tiger will not come in close because the player is pussyfooting, the Tiger will just get chipped away by everything until it dies without contributing meaningfully.

I suppose there is three possible ways to go about changing the Tiger.

1. As Dailydose suggested, to put it in the role of a breakthrough unit, decrease incoming penetration vs ATG's and handhelds.

I personally prefer this, because I think it gives the Tiger a definite character, role, and purpose which it did not have before. If the Tiger can become a breakthrough tank that can push into an enemy position to breakthrough, or headbutt an enemy attack to stop it, I think people will finally have reason to have a Tiger over a Panther. Panther can kill enemy armor better than the Tiger and be much more mobile, but it would not be able to crash into the enemy lines like the Tiger can. An incremental health bonus would just be icing on the cake to balance it with the Pershing.

This would make the Tiger its own, instead of just being a fatter P4, and it won't be compared to the Panther all the time because they will be meant to do two very different things. Panther is anti-armor; Tiger is for breakthrough/headbutt.

2. To put it in the role of a support unit, increase it's speed slightly and it's acceleration moderately.

I think this would also balance out the Tiger, but as you said it in Vent, it would just turn the Tiger into a Pershing clone. One of the selling-points in EiRR for me was distinct companies. Having the Tiger turn into a quasi-pershing would really kill the flavor of running a Blitzkrieg or Armor company for both sides, in my opinion. That, and the Tiger would still lack the specialist doctrine bonuses the Pershing has, meaning it is still crappy, just faster.  

3. To retain it's generalist slot (God forbid I'd ever find myself saying this)... Reduce it's price in fuel.

Since the Tiger is technically a heavy tank, there is probably a point where reducing fuel cost beyond it gets rediculous--and that point is probably above where the "fair cost" fuel for the Tiger will be. Fuel will have to be chopped by a hefty amount to get the Tiger to be viable, which might allow Blitzkrieg companies to armor-spam using the saved fuel on the tiger, making EiRR even more armor-heavy than it already is. That's probably a bad direction to take considering the amount of scrap metal produced in every match.

It is important to note that it's raw offensive power is fine as it stands and should not be touched outside of doctrines - Changing this will inevitably break the unit.

100% agree with this.

[nikomas]

I've said most of what I want said about the thing, but long story short 2 PZ.IV's can accomplish what a single tiger can for a smaller price and with more health to spare, therein lies the issue... It's pretty much a giant, less cost effective P4 in my opinion. Sure it does everything better, but not 250% better as per the fuel costs. It's also a way bigger gamble.

[Hicks58]

In short, after discussion with Dailydose I agree with him that the best option to attempt for the Tiger would be an incoming penetration decrease.

He's listed out all of the reasons pretty well and I don't feel the need to expand on them any further owing to the fact that I've little else to add. The only thing that would be on my mind is to what degree does the Tiger need an incoming penetration decrease.

It's worth noting that the KT has Tiger armour and -20% incoming penetration, most people and myself included consider the KT's armour to be pretty damned strong. Matching it with KT armour may be a viable option.

Before anybody even thinks about "But the KT SHOULD be much more durable!..." please don't forget about the sheer difference in health, as in, effectively double the Tiger's health.

[Tymathee]

how about just -10, 20 may be a bit much as the kt bounces ALOT of shots

[XIIcorps]

yeh KT bounces pretty well everything bar a 17pdr frontally

[dailydose]

how about just -10, 20 may be a bit much as the kt bounces ALOT of shots

I think matching the Tiger armor to KT may be viable due to the fact that while a KT can hang about at long-range, the Tiger needs to close-in very close to the enemy to be effective. There are several reasons for this. The first is the Tiger's short 40 range. Short-range means that the Tiger is closer to the enemy than the KT during the fight, which allows the Allies to flank the Tiger much easier than the KT which can stand off at a further distance.

The second reason why the KT armor for the Tiger may be approriate is because for optimal performance, the Tiger must be close--real close--to the enemy. According to Rainbow's chart, the KT has 75% accuracy at long-range, while the Tiger only has 65%--the Tiger cannot just sit in 40 range and bang on, because his accuracy is too low. Instead, the Tiger must move in to 20m to lose the long-range accuracy penalty, which means that he will be close enough for the Allies to lose their long-range penetration penalties for their ATGs and tanks. And because the Tiger is that much closer, it is even easier to flank and hit its rear now. The combination of these factors in addition to the Tiger only having 1/2 health of the KT will mean that although the Tiger and KT will share the armor, the Tiger will be more easily destroyed than the KT by a significant margin--margin probably big enough to justify the KT's extra cost in resources, without making the Tiger just a crap KT.

In addition, I believe it is better to start high and go down, because in that case, you definitely know whether changing the pen. has an effect on player usage, whereas if you start too low, your observation is confounded: is lowering pen not working because the reduction was too low, or because it wasn't an effective way to fix the Tiger?

[tank130]

Very impressive posts dailydose

And you too hicks, but I expect nothing less from you