Pak Ambush T2

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[Smokaz]

Im with Spamalin on this one. Normal movement speed is a no-no for the pak, regardless of it being a tier 2. If the american infantry doctrine had a T4 "IMAFIRINGMAHLAZAH" that made their officer shoot lazer out of his mouth, it would still be cheesy - and thats exactly the feeling I get from normal speed cloaked paks. Yes its a bad comparison, but the slow moving cloaked pak was a balance issue before agreed on by a lot of players and it was debated endlessily, and a change was made. Restoring it to its former "glory" by giving it even more speed than the good old Pakzilla had before just seems like overall horrible idea.

If the restoring of half movement speed for the PAK while its cloaked doesn't seem enough in the Dev's eyes, there's always the possbility to give some other small additional bonuses - restore 1st strike bonus for 2 shots - or give it some small at-gun related stat boost. (Like +15% damage or extra health for the crew, increased turn speed etc.)

But no further accuracy, or the Def T2 will herald the return of the magical paksnipe. Right now the 57mm vs 50mm Pak seems fairly balanced.

[Illegal_Carrot]

I love how you quote me out of context in your signature, and how you flamebait me after there has been a specific guidelines post by akranadas.

The 'while cloaked' part is obviously implied, and even if it wasn't, anyone could easily click the quote and see your full post.
And I'm not flaming you in any way; I'm merely saying that people are going to (and already have) take you less seriously when you make such outrageous claims like that.

Except the 6pdr receives no bonus to ambush, and cannot buy AP rounds. It also does not get Green Cover from the gun shield. So it is in fact inferior to both the 57mm and PAK outside of being able to hide in perfect cover that gets all its crewmembers.

We're not talking about the effectiveness of these AT Guns, we're talking about their ability to cloak.
The point I was making was this: PaKs can cloak, but not move while cloaked. This ability would allow for them to go 'one better,' and move while cloaked. 57mms getting 'one better' would grant them the ability to cloak, but not move while cloaked. And that's the 6pdr, who's ability to cloak is not outrageous or OP at all.
All I'm saying is that, at least according to Myst's example, giving PaK's the ability to move (slowly) while cloaked is not OP as he's making it out to be, or even at all.

If the restoring of half movement speed for the PAK while its cloaked doesn't seem enough in the Dev's eyes

The PaK's movement at T2 is supposed to be at half speed, it's just a bug that they can move at full speed.

[LuAn]

Pak Ambush:  Considering the amount of unit it affects and the actual buff this unlock grants you, in comparison to other t2 across the board, and considering what smokaz said, add the movement speed penalty + some other minor buff, like being able to purchase a single faust shot or so, dunno something tasty, could be a percentage buff too, and keep it as a t2.

Overall the Defensive Doctrine doenst really seem to be so special defensive:

If I look at all the factions across the board, the stuka as the only signature unit seems abit underpar, why not make the officer a t0?

Then the trenches unlock for t1, why not allow grenadiers and volks to build basic bunkers (5mun) with this, would fit a bit better id say.

Superior Soldiers seems really powerfull, is it really "all" units or just infantry?
If it really is all infantry? More T2 worthy then?

And why is MI for defensive a T2? Are there any additional free uses or so? Or why is it assumed to be superior to Airborne and Luft ones? In terms of Gameplay usefullness id say Recon > MI.

If the Flak88 gains all the buffs from this doctrine its fine as a T2. T4 seem oke too.

However, Scopes seems to be weaker than other t3 stat buffs that are out there. Yes both affected units are basic infantry but change the sight increase to a static number maybe? So omninense would benefit them abit more?
Too me this unlock can somehow be compared to Locked and Loaded, or Improved Armour.
So a 5-10(15%-25%) range increase, and a 15% acc increase or 10% acc + another tasty buff would seem abit more inline with other t3's.

(RCA T1: 15 more sight on officer units, which would be like 42%)

[Smokaz]

Pak Ambush being describable as "narrow" or "niche" might very well be a accurate description compared with some of the other T2's available, but I dont think its any less powerful when used in a pak or support heavy company (which defensive has the potential to be) as it allows you to play completely different with your paks.

The thing is that a moving-cloaked pak is immenisily different from a normal pak. I'm sure all of you know these things, but I'm listing the stuff for the sake of the discussion.

A moving cloaked pak is able to

1) Sneak up on a 57mm and get the first shot at no risk of receiving fire back (retardedly good in some situations)
2) Escape from a situation while cloaked
3) Scout (The pak has a good sight range)

Neither of these activities are risk-free for a uncloaked pak. A cloaked pak however can pull this off under good conditions.

[Killer344]

1) Sneak up on a 57mm and get the first shot at no risk of receiving fire back (retardedly good in some situations)

yeah, because paks don't decloak after the 1st shot, right? :p.

[Smokaz]

Put on your Harry Potter sponsored glasses, it said "first". How does a pak not get the first shot from cloak?

[Killer344]

The 57 will still own it, lab it.

[Smokaz]

I havent been paksniping a lot lately because of the lack of cloak-creep, but if thats the current situation (I 100% agree with the idea that the 57mm does much better against the pak lately) it is a balance problem in its own, 57mm and pak should have equally small chance to hit and destroy each other out of cloak.

[Killer344]

The Pak needs to hit it 3 times to be able to kill it, while the 57 will kill the pak in 2 shots, the real problem is the 5%HP bug that allows the 57 to just "survive", paks seems to get pwned if anything touches them when they are at 5%HP.

[gamesguy2]

The Pak needs to hit it 3 times to be able to kill it, while the 57 will kill the pak in 2 shots, the real problem is the 5%HP bug that allows the 57 to just "survive", paks seems to get pwned if anything touches them when they are at 5%HP.

The 57mm and pak crit tables are identical, in fact they use the same armor type.

Both have a 25% chance of not dying at 5% hp.

[Killer344]

I could still swear after so many games in EIR/COH that 57s have more chances to get out alive :p.

[RikiRude]

It does, but there are just so many things that can vary how long either live. How often do you see a full health either go against each other? 1 shreck shot at a 57 and 1 pak can sometimes kill it. and most 57's take damage from P4s. paks may take damage from light vehicles. its just that a majority of the time your ATG has taken damage. rarely do you see fights between ATGs at full health. either way i'm glad that we don't see as much ATG fighting at we use to, at least I haven't noticed it as much.

i just hate losing 57s to marders. i mean how does the marder hit me, but my 57 misses that big old hunk of metal!?