Churchill Crocodile

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[Tymathee]

i've seen rr's bounce off tigers...

[Spartan_Marine88]

Well why not say nerf tetrach, a good player can use it to kill a tiger or even a kt 1v1 with the little john adapter as it has the highest pen in the game and it costs less fuel, muni and mp and has less pop

[Voleron]

Yes, but the Tetrarch will die to a stiff breeze. That already nerfs it adequately, I'd say.

[VERTIGGO]

Ohh, look big scary churchill croc

Heres my light at halftrack, there goes its treads, now 4-5 shots from a marder no more croc.
6-8 with hull down

But yeah its OP

I know it's often suicide, but I have reached this point several times, and with 1200 hp, even if the treads break, I can hull down and kill the Marder in maybe 4 shots, at which point the LATHT is on the run or on the menu.

As far as PaKs, yes the croc can usually only take one at a time, but honestly, there are plenty of situations where a PaK is not protected by a second, or the second is being distracted by something else, or
whathaveyou. In contrast a single ATG can kill a panther before it can flank it, since it often has AP rounds, vet and some other buff available.

[TheLastArmada]

Why do we always have to Nerf units into uselessness,
The Church croc is a lvl 9 doc unit for christ sakes
Same as the Tiger yeh,
But can the Croc kite .... nope not at all
but the tiger can

Ive also lost many a corc to those blastard Volks mines that slow vechs, combine that with a pak or equivilant and
the already slow croc is a battleship at pearl harbour

[smurfORnot]

i've seen rr's bounce off tigers...

and yet,manny times they go through tiger like a butter...once single rr squad took like 50% of my tiger health,stupid shit kept missing...

[Mysthalin]

Even if FF is not mandatory, you're still sacrificing the ability to use a FF for an extra churchill.

I thought that was the whole point of resources. So you, you know - had to chose between what units you want and can afford? Naturally, if you go for pure crocodiles you won't have Fireflies. Seems like basic logic to me.

The part about the CCT is completely irrelevant. Crocodiles have minimal use for a CCT - not to mention you have the reserve pool to bite into should you REALLY deem the CCT smoke that useful and necessary. It is indeed a pretty light decision : you just get a couple extra AT guns - you can spare to sacrifice a few bren squads with that much tank-based anti-inf.

if we compare the base unit (croc and tiger), the 320 fuel is quite enough. Compare that to the 550 fuel tiger tank which can also kill tanks as well.

The tiger can't kill tanks due to it's super slow speed. Any tank lost to a tiger is the owner's fault, or the tank would have died to any other AT-capable unit anyway due to being crippled in speed and without AT support. Furthermore - Crocodiles consistently score more kills on infantry than Tigers - due to being effective against infantry in ALL situations. Cover is negated by the flametrhower, whereas men in the open are actually vulnearable to the Crocodile's cannon.

Doctrine ability wise the the tiger get alot of bonus from panzer ace and the heat round while the croc get the hull down and bonus HP

Croc also gets improved speed. And ablative armour or double repairs that are actually free. And the repairs are faster(thusly repairing more).

Don't forget the crocodile, when in hulldown, actually gains more health than the tiger.

Why do we always have to Nerf units into uselessness,
The Church croc is a lvl 9 doc unit for christ sakes
Same as the Tiger yeh,
But can the Croc kite .... nope not at all
but the tiger can

Pray tell how is the Tiger, having exactly 0.25 speed more than a regular Churchill (or 0.25 less if the Churchill has Hobart's Funnies) is any better at kiting than the Churchill? Or why the Churchill, being faster than all infantry (including sprinting, if the Churchill has Hobart's Funnies) is not capable of kiting it?
I would also like to know why the churchil being an unlock is at all relevant : it must still be balanced price-wise to be.. balanced.

Ive also lost many a corc to those blastard Volks mines that slow vechs, combine that with a pak or equivilant and

So wait, just because you CAN kill a unit, under favourable circumstances it is automatically balanced?

Even the old double Hunter Killer Jagd companies were counterable if outplayed significantly - but that didn't make them in any way balanced, you know..

Well why not say nerf tetrach, a good player can use it to kill a tiger or even a kt 1v1 with the little john adapter as it has the highest pen in the game and it costs less fuel, muni and mp and has less pop

I, being the sole person to ever actually bother to use tetrarchs to any noticeable number (8 per game), and even having written a guide on Tetrarchs, have come to the conclusion that this super awesome tank(one of the most awesome to have ever been concieved by man) is now, sadly, absolute shite. It's advantage in speed was completely destroyed the second somebody thought of reversing away from the little bugger. Tetrarch - thy will be sorely missed. Now that we have that tackled - let's not return upon the subject. The thread's purpose is to discuss about the crocodile, not the tetrarch.

This is not a thread about shreks and RRs either - please stop discussing it.

On an ending note - Firesparks. Would you please cite a single T3 in the game that gives all tanks 77 percent more effective health against most targets, and 33 percent more against the very few that can ignore the 0.75 penetration modifier of hulldown, as well as buffs to infantry surrounding the tank? Because, to me - that seems OP even for a T4, let alone a T2.

[TheLastArmada]

Ok you got me there HUll down is a bit Imba,
especially on the croc

But i really dont think its the crocs fault , its hull down that needs to be fixed

[Spartan_Marine88]

Ok you got me there HUll down is a bit Imba,
especially on the croc

But i really dont think its the crocs fault , its hull down that needs to be fixed

Which is i think the real conclusion we have all come to and discussed to death so let it be fixed

[Mister Schmidt]

Why do we always have to Nerf units into uselessness,
The Church croc is a lvl 9 doc unit for christ sakes

7 actually.

[Smokaz]

Hulldown really is that good?

Can't say I've noticed it. Has the instant deploy/cancel for this ability been fixed yet? I believe this is a balance/design problem with the ability pointed out.. months ago. Is it still possible to hull down and then exit the mode almost instantly?

It should at least be as slow as the marder lock-down to activate an cancel, with those kind of bonuses.

[LeoPhone]

works instant. can be used on all tanks. (no carriers and no LVs)

[spinn72]

Hulldown really is that good?

Can't say I've noticed it. Has the instant deploy/cancel for this ability been fixed yet? I believe this is a balance/design problem with the ability pointed out.. months ago. Is it still possible to hull down and then exit the mode almost instantly?

It should at least be as slow as the marder lock-down to activate an cancel, with those kind of bonuses.

Making it the same time as marder lock down sounds good. Allows time to move away / creep a pak up.

[Firesparks]

I thought that was the whole point of resources. So you, you know - had to chose between what units you want and can afford? Naturally, if you go for pure crocodiles you won't have Fireflies. Seems like basic logic to me.

The part about the CCT is completely irrelevant. Crocodiles have minimal use for a CCT - not to mention you have the reserve pool to bite into should you REALLY deem the CCT smoke that useful and necessary. It is indeed a pretty light decision : you just get a couple extra AT guns - you can spare to sacrifice a few bren squads with that much tank-based anti-inf.
The tiger can't kill tanks due to it's super slow speed. Any tank lost to a tiger is the owner's fault, or the tank would have died to any other AT-capable unit anyway due to being crippled in speed and without AT support. Furthermore - Crocodiles consistently score more kills on infantry than Tigers - due to being effective against infantry in ALL situations. Cover is negated by the flametrhower, whereas men in the open are actually vulnearable to the Crocodile's cannon.

Croc also gets improved speed. And ablative armour or double repairs that are actually free. And the repairs are faster(thusly repairing more).

Don't forget the crocodile, when in hulldown, actually gains more health than the tiger.

Pray tell how is the Tiger, having exactly 0.25 speed more than a regular Churchill (or 0.25 less if the Churchill has Hobart's Funnies) is any better at kiting than the Churchill? Or why the Churchill, being faster than all infantry (including sprinting, if the Churchill has Hobart's Funnies) is not capable of kiting it?
I would also like to know why the churchil being an unlock is at all relevant : it must still be balanced price-wise to be.. balanced.

So wait, just because you CAN kill a unit, under favourable circumstances it is automatically balanced?

Even the old double Hunter Killer Jagd companies were counterable if outplayed significantly - but that didn't make them in any way balanced, you know..

I, being the sole person to ever actually bother to use tetrarchs to any noticeable number (8 per game), and even having written a guide on Tetrarchs, have come to the conclusion that this super awesome tank(one of the most awesome to have ever been concieved by man) is now, sadly, absolute shite. It's advantage in speed was completely destroyed the second somebody thought of reversing away from the little bugger. Tetrarch - thy will be sorely missed. Now that we have that tackled - let's not return upon the subject. The thread's purpose is to discuss about the crocodile, not the tetrarch.

This is not a thread about shreks and RRs either - please stop discussing it.

On an ending note - Firesparks. Would you please cite a single T3 in the game that gives all tanks 77 percent more effective health against most targets, and 33 percent more against the very few that can ignore the 0.75 penetration modifier of hulldown, as well as buffs to infantry surrounding the tank? Because, to me - that seems OP even for a T4, let alone a T2.

1) if you consider the loss of a FF to be compensated by the presence of one more 6 pdr, then there isn't much to discuss. I don't want to turn this into a FF thread.

2) Even if the tiger can't give chase, having it alone is a big deterrent against armor. Either the allies try to fight the tiger or lose, or having to go abound without the use of armor. By comparison the Croc is only effective deterrent against infantry and/or light vehicle. You have to bring other at weapon on the field, meaning extra pop.

3) Ablative armor and the extra repair are separate t4 specialty. The panzer ace and Heat round are on the same tree meaning the Tiger can pick both. Do you just to to shout all day on the power of the Heat round tree compared to the Ablative plating or Expert engineer tree?

4)Tiger has better acceleration than the churchill. The tiger can shoot and scoot more easily as it picks up speed faster. The more powerful main gun also help. Also the hobart's funnies doesn't increase the speed of the churchill.

5) I did say that the current hull down is a bit too power for a t2 ability, and ablative armor is T4 ability. The Tiger can get the t4 Heat round give provide 25% more damage, compare to the ablative armor's 33% more power.

Right now the Tiger is under performing because of the abundance of AB RR coy in the meta game. By comparison the Churchill can shrug off most schreck round.
I am not going to say the Churchill is perfectly balance, but compared to the Tiger it's not that much more devastating. I've had the displeasure of having to deal with Tiger without the help of the AB and it wasn't pretty. The tiger round can and will shred most infantry, from the sapper to the Rangers. The only inf I've notice that can stand up to the Tiger is the AB RR. conversely the Croc will shred most axis infantry as well, the difference being that the axis doesn't have RR to spam.

Against croc you can use armor or mostly stuff that isn't roasted by the Flame thrower, except those stuff get owned by AB RR. I'm convinced that the Croc + AB RR combo is a bit overpowered, but this is the fault of the AB RR, not the croc.  It doesn't help that the best counter against AB RR, the KCH and the PG mp44/g43, both have armor that are weak against flame. Croc+ ab RR is probably the worst combo any PE player can face. The vehicles get WTFPWN by AB rr, and all the PG get roasted by the flame thrower.

[Spartan_Marine88]

1) if you consider the loss of a FF to be compensated by the presence of one more 6 pdr, then there isn't much to discuss. I don't want to turn this into a FF thread.

agreed

2) Even if the tiger can't give chase, having it alone is a big deterrent against armor. Either the allies try to fight the tiger or lose, or having to go abound without the use of armor. By comparison the Croc is only effective deterrent against infantry and/or light vehicle. You have to bring other at weapon on the field, meaning extra pop.

2 m10's will kill a tiger, its powerful but killable. And most at weapons are only 4 pop, so not that big of a cost too kill a church
 

5) I did say that the current hull down is a bit too power for a t2 ability, and ablative armor is T4 ability. The Tiger can get the t4 Heat round give provide 25% more damage, compare to the ablative armor's 33% more power.

Hull down is not OP, its broken and not the values drop the damn hull down thing please as we know Hull down should not be a T3, just fix the damn instant set up

Right now the Tiger is under performing because of the abundance of AB RR coy in the meta game. By comparison the Churchill can shrug off most schreck round.
I am not going to say the Churchill is perfectly balance, but compared to the Tiger it's not that much more devastating. I've had the displeasure of having to deal with Tiger without the help of the AB and it wasn't pretty. The tiger round can and will shred most infantry, from the sapper to the Rangers. The only inf I've notice that can stand up to the Tiger is the AB RR. conversely the Croc will shred most axis infantry as well, the difference being that the axis doesn't have RR to spam.

Against croc you can use armor or mostly stuff that isn't roasted by the Flame thrower, except those stuff get owned by AB RR. I'm convinced that the Croc + AB RR combo is a bit overpowered, but this is the fault of the AB RR, not the croc.  It doesn't help that the best counter against AB RR, the KCH and the PG mp44/g43, both have armor that are weak against flame. Croc+ ab RR is probably the worst combo any PE player can face. The vehicles get WTFPWN by AB rr, and all the PG get roasted by the flame thrower.

And once again this thread is ABOUT THE DAMN CROC, NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU CAN"T COUNTER THE CROC BECAUSE AB STOPS YOU. That does not in the slightest prove its OP when i keep reading your sentances i keep seeing. The croc is OP because when i was fighting it AB dropped in and out played my ass so it needs to be nerfed. And if you want to get into the AB + Croc, why not counter it with an 88, stuh, scout car lockedown with an ist and marder

ON a final note, the meta game has no relevence or bearing on whether or not a unit is OP

[Smokaz]

Storms + KT are OP against m10, cause omg the storms rape the m10 when it tries to flank the KT

[panzerman]

Double shrek storms rape every vehicle that does not supress I use them as my start callin it is magical for insta win vs sherman and crom starts.

[Mysthalin]

Airborne are, once again, absolutely IRRELEVANT to the crocodile's balance. Stop trying to beat 2 players with just 1 player's stuff. I could theory craft 4 P4s coming in out of nowhere, pwning both the churchils and the RRs with ease - but that'd be stupid.

Even if the tiger can't give chase, having it alone is a big deterrent against armor. Either the allies try to fight the tiger or lose, or having to go abound without the use of armor. By comparison the Croc is only effective deterrent against infantry and/or light vehicle. You have to bring other at weapon on the field, meaning extra pop.

The tiger can not do jack shit to the following tanks, and is flat out hard-countered by them : M10, M18, Firefly. This is, of course, ignoring the use of a simple 6 pdr/57mm AT gun with a button/sticky screening infantry squad.
Furthermore, noone is forced to "fight the tiger or lose". You'll do quite fine by stickying the tiger and just back-capping while the sad sack of shit inches around the battlefield being useless.

Ablative armor and the extra repair are separate t4 specialty. The panzer ace and Heat round are on the same tree meaning the Tiger can pick both. Do you just to to shout all day on the power of the Heat round tree compared to the Ablative plating or Expert engineer tree?

Which is the reason why I said "or".

The double repairs tree has 3 buffs that all buff the crocodile, in a row. Hobart's funnies, double repairs and hull down.

Tiger has better acceleration than the churchill. The tiger can shoot and scoot more easily as it picks up speed faster. The more powerful main gun also help. Also the hobart's funnies doesn't increase the speed of the churchill.

Yes, it has a bit more acceleration, but it also has to stop a lot more often due to the moving accuracy of the tiger's main gun making it absolutely worthless. The crocodile, however, does not have the need to stop - as the flamethrower is the one thing dealing the damage. Not the main gun. This is already ignoring the fact the Tiger costs 70 percent more than the Crocodile(In terms of fuel), and is hard-capped to 2, unlike the Crocodile. In this entire comparison between the Tiger and the Crocodile - you should have been comparing 1 Tiger (you can also take a StuG, if you want) to 2 Crocodiles - as that is the actual ratio in which the units are generally bought.
Hobart's funnies always gave a speed boost to churchills.

And finally - when I told you about the 77 percent more effective health what I meant WAS the Hulldown. With ablative armour, you'd go into a retarded 135 percent more effective health(or 77 percent if the enemy weapon always penetrates regardless of hulldown) Though dual repairs is in most cases simply better, due to granting you an entire extra life (50 percent more extended staying power). To me, personally - both of these options seem infinitely better than the mere 25 percent increment in damage.

The tiger isn't shit because of the RR. It has always been a shit tank due to it's general design - hard hitting and well armoured, but expensive and slow as fuck. It would work back in vEiR due to some retarded abilities(Improved Barrels wee), but it doesn't anymore. That's just how it is.

[NightRain]

Tiger has always been crap in Company of Heroes engine

[Spartan_Marine88]

Not the main gun. This is already ignoring the fact the Tiger costs 70 percent more than the Crocodile(In terms of fuel), and is hard-capped to 2, unlike the Crocodile.

I guess i would be perfectly happy with a hard cap of 2 on the croc and the Hull down insta bug being fixed.

But if there is a price fix, maybe give us an actual reason to use the Mk 6, nothing drastic but maybe a bit more splash against inf?