[wher] Panzer IV

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[Hicks58]

Such heavy handed opinions...

I said a "Slight" bit of difference. Because PIV's DO on the odd occasion pull off bounces on M10's. The bigger focus was HEAT rounds anyhow, which is something of a direct counter to the M10's health buff.

[Rocksitter]

 I wonder why you see a whole bunch of Panthers being fielded?

[brn4meplz]

I wonder why you see a whole bunch of Panthers being fielded?

because you see a whole bunch of Upgun shermans being fielded. Meta game advances through cycles. P4's to fight normal Shermans. Upguns to counter P4's. Panthers to counter Upguns. M10's to counter Panthers. Infantry/Pak At to counter M10's. Shermans to counter Infantry/Pak AT. P4's to counter shermans. Upgun sherman to counter P4's.

Well you get the picture right?

[Pak88mm]

almost useless now, considering that every allied has suicide m10s to bum rush em into p4s. an m10 1v1 will beat a p4. just simple circle jerk and already m10s are buffed. its best just to save fuel and MP and use stugs like i have. at least stugs hit harder.

[Mysthalin]

Hicks - P4 has 129 percent chance to penetrate at maximum range. It will definitely penetrate the M10 every single time. You seeing a P4 bounce off an M10 is entirely your imagination.

M10 has a 91.56 chance to penetrate a P4 from maximum range. Sure, you can get AP rounds to counteract the less than negligible 8.44 percent chance of bouncing, or you can simply take Improved Armour to guarantee your survival against 2 extra P4 shots. Not to mention that with Improved Armour vet is easier to gain - and with vet the M10 gains 1.2 penetration, which makes sure no shots will ever bounce.
The AP rounds damage boost WILL help you kill the P4 in 4 shots instead of 5.. But 2 extra shots taken from the P4 is still more useful.

[Hicks58]

Myst... You get BOTH lol.

You take the extra two rounds at vet one, AND you can kill them in four rounds.

Check for yourself... Armour Piercing Rounds is right after Improved Armour.

Then I must have a very vivid imagination, cause I could of swore i've seen it happen at some point. Does the M10 get any incoming penetration modifiers with vet?

[Mysthalin]

Ah, good point. I was always under the impression it was in the same tree as Tank Command. Though, having essentially 25 percent more pop-efficiency is still better to me than the very negligible buff from AP rounds.

Nope, M10s can never, and have never been able to bounce P4 shells in all their existence.

[Hicks58]

The entire AP round tree gives the M10 more bite, the survivability of a Sherman, and being free to engage heavy armour with a pair of M10's and make a real mess of them (Them being the Heavy armour lawl)

Pop efficiency... That's a preference thing. Before it's nerf I could see your point, but 25% efficiency doesn't sell it for me. I prefer having more bite with what I have, than having more stuff. Hence my liking for Pershings. Only two of them, but damn they can leave a mark.

Hrm... Must of been the beer one night then. Interesting.

[AmPM]

Hicks - P4 has 129 percent chance to penetrate at maximum range. It will definitely penetrate the M10 every single time. You seeing a P4 bounce off an M10 is entirely your imagination.

M10 has a 91.56 chance to penetrate a P4 from maximum range. Sure, you can get AP rounds to counteract the less than negligible 8.44 percent chance of bouncing, or you can simply take Improved Armour to guarantee your survival against 2 extra P4 shots. Not to mention that with Improved Armour vet is easier to gain - and with vet the M10 gains 1.2 penetration, which makes sure no shots will ever bounce.
The AP rounds damage boost WILL help you kill the P4 in 4 shots instead of 5.. But 2 extra shots taken from the P4 is still more useful.

It can bounce, but its a fluke, like when the round bounces off a rifleman or a hedge.

[Mysthalin]

The round can't bounce off riflemen, nor can it bounce off P4s. As in - ever. I don't remember ever seeing an M10 round bouncing off a hedge - but loads of stuff bounces off those - so it's not exactly relevant.


Also hicks - different doctrines in playstyles, then. I go for the weight in numbers doctrine, which focuses on out-attritioning the enemy with sheer mass, on top of having multiple chances. I just flat out dislike sitting on one or two ace-cards, and relying on them completely to win a game. Though, I have used Pershings and they are indeed pretty damn nice ;p. Still, with them I only go OBM for more chances to achieve efficiency!

[AmPM]

Next time I get a game where it bounces off a rifleman I'll put it on youtube for you. It happens, I'm sure it's an error in a calculation somewhere, but it does happen.

[Hicks58]

That is where we will reach a similarity... I also use OBM.

All this time I was arguing the point of something that I don't even use. :p

My Pershings make a lovely mess of Infantry... My "Ace" tends to get between 30-50 infantry kills a game if I'm actually awake and not micro'ing like a prat.

I use OBM as I can make my quality tanks perform well for longer... Efficiency and quality rolled into one. But if i had to make a choice between the two, quality comes first for me. I'd rather hit something with a sledgehammer than beat it to death with a claw hammer.

[Mysthalin]

Ah, but you see, my M10s hit pretty much like a sledgehammer. The difference lays within that your sledgehammer has a hardened titanium handle, which makes it hard to break, whereas mine is made of simple brass.

Though, seeing as your titanium handle is expensive, you have to preserve it. If I break mine - I'll just get a new one - they're cheap .

[Pak88mm]

here the worst parts about p4

shit armor
shit gun vs armor
shit mg on top
very few doc buffs that make
vet 2 range loss was huge! it allowed it to at least keep on pat with upguns and m10s
worst is how shit damage it does to light armor lol
oh hi its 12 fucking pop cap!

stugs imo with 8 pop are just so superior in the amount you field and their gun actually hits better. also mg suppresion and doc buffs make it extremely efficient for price. P4s are just hurt kittens...

[Pak88mm]

i agree with AMPM i seen P4 deflect M10s and sure as fuck seen em deflect shot on riflemen! lol it looks like a fucking curve ball into the fucking sky! if anything imagine a stickie locking in into an AC with overdrive....thats how a deflection shot on riflemen looks like.

[EliteGren]

You guys got irritated by the old german steel. It made you have a 15% chance to bounce EVERYTHING.

[Groundfire]

tbh, most of the ppl here got too used to P4s doing absolutely everything for them.

Im kinda glad we broke the 5 P4 HEAT blitz metagame.

[deadbolt]

i got 3 vet 2 p4s without skirts, and 1 vet 3 without skirts, and apparently theyre not strong, lol.

[Baine]

i got 3 vet 2 p4s without skirts, and 1 vet 3 without skirts, and apparently theyre not strong, lol.

They get 3 shotted by piats.

[deadbolt]

l2micro