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[Spartan_Marine88]

Hell what every goddamn catholic forgets about their church is this, god may be above the law of man, but the pope is one of us and may not even truly believe in what he supposed to represent and just because he hides in his own country doesn't mean we should put up with his actions.

I for one have no use for that old man

Oo.. yes I am right

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do

pope looks like a pedo...

[Mister Schmidt]

So, God can rape children?

[CubanLynx]

Yet he is promoting dealing with this problem is he not? Spartan your starting to sound like one of those evangelicals who centres his whole life around Catholic bashing becasue that is the only way he can defend his own flawed religion. If your just going to insult without providing proper arguements then I'll leave you to it. Like I said I would I've dealt with everything you've thrown at me with logical arguments based on historical fact and Christian principles. If you can't take that then fine. Dig the dirt but do it on your own. I'm done here.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Yet he is promoting dealing with this problem is he not? Spartan your starting to sound like one of those evangelicals who centres his whole life around Catholic bashing becasue that is the only way he can defend his own flawed religion. If your just going to insult without providing proper arguements then I'll leave you to it. Like I said I would I've dealt with everything you've thrown at me with logical arguments based on historical fact and Christian principles. If you can't take that then fine. Dig the dirt but do it on your own. I'm done here.

One may promote dealing with this problem. But such issue should only have one answer you rape a child you go to jail. The fact that priest don't and are instead brought to another place to teach just goes to show how flawed your religion has become

you think just because you are a priest you deserve a 1 time free pass for rape?

[salan]

promoting to deal with a problem after you have been implicated does not make him innocent.  

If I shot someone in the head, and later started an organization against shooting people in the head, I would still be guilty of shooting someone in the head, and need to pay the price for my actions.

he is not above the law, not in todays day and age.  Ultimately the CHURCH is not the BIBLE or JESUS.  We are all human, and these high and grand popes / bishops, anyone for that matter. Are all basically just people, and subject to the laws of man.  They need to suffer the consequences of their actions while they are alive, as well as when they are dead...  and the church tries to never suffer while they are alive.

[Spartan_Marine88]

promoting to deal with a problem after you have been implicated does not make him innocent.  

If I shot someone in the head, and later started an organization against shooting people in the head, I would still be guilty of shooting someone in the head, and need to pay the price for my actions.

he is not above the law, not in todays day and age.  Ultimately the CHURCH is not the BIBLE or JESUS.  We are all human, and these high and grand popes / bishops, anyone for that matter. Are all basically just people, and subject to the laws of man.  They need to suffer the consequences of their actions while they are alive, as well as when they are dead...  and the church tries to never suffer while they are alive.

+1

[CubanLynx]

promoting to deal with a problem after you have been implicated does not make him innocent.  

If I shot someone in the head, and later started an organization against shooting people in the head, I would still be guilty of shooting someone in the head, and need to pay the price for my actions.

he is not above the law, not in todays day and age.  Ultimately the CHURCH is not the BIBLE or JESUS.  We are all human, and these high and grand popes / bishops, anyone for that matter. Are all basically just people, and subject to the laws of man.  They need to suffer the consequences of their actions while they are alive, as well as when they are dead...  and the church tries to never suffer while they are alive.

We never say that we are above the law. I believe Priest being tried under Church law goes back to the fact that the Vatican was a state and religious people were memebers  of that state. The Pope was never a paedophile so the analogy doesn't really work. The document was released becuase he knew how the liberal media treat anything smutty to do with catholics. Why make a big thing of something you can try and deal with on the quiet. I admit this problem is still exists but then it does aswell in society. No solution has really come up to deal with the problem. Sexual perversion are prevalent everywhere and I would say less so in the church due to celibacy even though the media would have you think otherwise.

I can support these cliams becuase you can see how another peadophile is being treated. Roman Polanski he is a celebrated film director in Europe, the media are sympathetic to his cause no one head hunts even though he is a paedo.

The Church has suffered much in this world and they do so willlingly. Do I really have to go back to the countless martyrs who suffered and died for their faith, they make up the church as do I.

[CubanLynx]

Spartan what do you belive in? What is your religion? Just becuase the messengers are bad does not mean the message is bad.

[Killer344]

The numbers of pedophiles happens to be higher among priests because you know.....ummm... negating a fisiological need like sex has consequences; like corrupting their mind leading to the actions we all know already.

Born pagan, live like a pagan, likely will die pagan as well.

Tolkien's myth happens to be a good analogy of christianity, because it's the same but with logic and the knowledge of two thousands years of literature knowledge applied (like any other religion, it can't be proven real but it can not be proven false as well); the bible may have been enough to fool most people back in the day, but not nowadays, philosophical evolution also exists.

[Mysthalin]

@Cuban Lynx

1. None of the current priests, bishops or even the pope have been chosen by Christ either. By that logic - Christ doesn't want ANYONE to be a minister of religion at this point.

2. It doesn't MATTER. You base a church on the faith of the people - not on whether there is a long succession of bishops that can be dated back to the Apostles. You do realise there is no way to check the validity of the succession actually being unbroken? Documents could easily have been forged.

3. So how could have Christ taught Mary - she was already perfect. Christ chose the Apostles not only for them to teach others - but for them to be taught by Christ himself. You also need to remember that Mary was the synonym of Humbleness - she would not have wanted to preach, even if Christ had asked her to. Not to mention that moral perfection does not equal the ability to preach.

4. You can't "want" to believe something. Either you believe it, or you don't - and it's entirely unrelated to your wants or will.

5. Yes - it's not me doing the bad deed by not giving the boy food - but the rich man. If you have food yourself - give the boy food yourself, but don't steal it from others. Asking the rich man to give the boy food is also a possibility. Whenever you steal, or commit any other crime, even if it's for a just cause - you've already commited a crime.


6. You didn't refute anything - you used a logical flaw yet again. You're claiming that you need to follow precedent if you want to learn a man's teachings. Thusly - you need to follow EVERYTHING the man did, not just a select few of things, as precedent needs to be followed to absolute perfection. Therefore - you need to learn how to walk on water if you want to truly follow Christ's teachings by precedent. If you, however, chose to follow his PREACHINGS, rather than his precedent(like, you know, whenever you learn anything else from any other teacher) - you simply ignore the precedent, as you simply CAN'T be the exact same as anyone else in the world. Not morally, not intelectually, not physically.

7. Except that Scientists can already trace back and prove the history of the universe up to 0.00000000000000000000000000001 seconds after the big bang. It's not going to take all that long for us now to find out what actually happened during second 0 of the universes existance, and afterwards - perhaps even what was there before that. Not everything needs to have an end, Cuban - the Universe itself is infinite. You can fly at millions of years at 10 times the speed of light in any direction from Earth - and you'll never hit an invisible wall or anything. You'll just keep on going.

8. Where have I claimed otherwise? I told you - we as a species come from Africa, and the first three major civilisations were in Messopotamia, China and Egypt, with Messopotamia being slightly earlier than the other two. Oh, there's also the Indian civilisations(the ones in India, not in America).

9. Yet again - you're utilising a logic flaw - basing an assumption on an assumption. You have provided ZERO evidence of the church existing as an institution in 96 AD(mostly to do with Christians being crucified and burned constantly at that point of time in the Roman Empire). You haven't proven there having been a pope Clement either. Please cite an actual historical source - a link would be acceptable as well(though it would only be of relative value). The source you should cite must be completely neutral to the case(A known, certified historian that is NOT a christian).

10. If God does indeed exist - then he is evil, or at least completely apathetic. We have agreed that evil is an active thing - not just "the lack of good". So if God created evil, or even if he tolerates evil's presence - he must be evil. He's omnipotent and omniscient - he should have been well aware of what Evil could do before it had been created. Why did he create it in the first place?

11. No, you said that the life of the soul is killed. What happens to the soul once it's life is kille? I'm pretty sure that killing life in a soul would more or less so be destroying it.

[Mysthalin]

Spartan what do you belive in? What is your religion? Just becuase the messengers are bad does not mean the message is bad.

Indeed it doesn't. But if a group of bandits came in, raped your wife, shot her in the face, then tortured your children to death(perhaps crucifying them), then told you that you should donate money to charity - would you be very compelled to listen to the bandits after they leave your house? Because that's more or less so what the Teutonic order(and other orders of their kind) did when trying to Christianise the pagan nations of the Baltic - just replace "donate to charity" with "Follow Christ's faith".

The Tuetonic order fought for Land not for the name of God. You cannot go on a Crusade against a Christian country. The Pope is not perfect. The Catholic Church never has and never will say that the Pope suddenly becomes perfect when he is elected.

Isn't he there to guide the entire faith? So, if a flawed man leads a faith - what is there to show us the faith isn't flawed as well?

We never say that we are above the law.

With never excluding the entire middle-ages, yes? The pope in those days quite frankly said himself he's not just above man's law - he's above any man ever to have been seen in existance. He leads the kings and he leads everyone - he can't be judged. And let's not forget that priests could never be trialed under regular trial. No - they would need to answer to a religious tribunal, which would often just sentence the man to nothing more than reciting all the prayers 10 times over. So yes - Catholics have, for a very long time, been and assumed that they are above the law.

And believe you me - the Pope and the Church condoned the Teutonic Order's actions. If it didn't - I don't think all the letters urging German, English, French and Spannish knights to come help the Teutons in the east would have been sent/

[salan]

I was enjoying the discussion on WW2, and the discussion on religion and its many human faults (ie church)..  but really they aren't the same thread anymore..!

[Mysthalin]

Seperate them then .

[CubanLynx]

Mysthalin english isn't your first language is it? You seem to misread all my arguments and misinterpret it. We are starting to go round in circles. I'll answer back to your post but probably for the last time since I'm tired of reiterating myself.

1.Christ chose the apostles, he gave them the power to chose their successors and soon down through history it goes. It has been historically proven that the line is only unbroken in the Catholic Church. This is why the Church of England never uses the argument that Christ didn't choose the bishops in this modern day. If you want to go down  the line of document forging then you could probably disregard the entirety of history.

2.If you want to make any old religion then no it does not matter. If you want to claim that your religion is the one Christ instituted then yes it does matter. Since they are the men who were given the faith first to pass onto others through their successors.

3. This is the part where I think you don't understand what I'm trying to say.  I'm saying becuase Mary was perfect she would have been a better teacher. So unless Christ had a reason for only choosing men to teach it would be logical for him to choose Mary as a teacher. Had Jesus asked her to teach she would have done so. She was perfectly obedient aswell.

4.Your feeling do not control you, you control yourself. A woman can feel like eating when shes's hungry but she can choose not too if she wants to lose weight. Feelings influence you but they do not control your will does.

5. It is evil if you have the ability to save the boy. What is worse stealing or killing someone? You seem to think stealing some food is worse.

6.My logic is not flawed. I'm saying if you want to follow a man properly you have to follow all his teachings. Christ never taught to walk on water, although interestingly he did say that if you had a little faith you would be able to move mountains.

7. The big bang starts of with the assumption that all the material is already there. They cannot explain where it came from. Logically everything in this world must have been caused by one uncaused thing, we call this thing God. I won't explain it here because it will take too long but look up the Teleological argument, the Cosmological argument and finally look up the law of causality.

8.The theory that we came from africa is just that, a theory. It has not been proven. The evidence of civilisation is overwhelming evidence that humanity began in the biblical area. This theory of africa being the mother country is popular becuase it supports evolution, which has nowadays largely become a atheist doctrine almost.

9.Research Pope Clement please. Just to get you started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Clement_I. It is a historical fact that he existed. I'm not a historian with all the documents in front of me, but if you care to research you will find he does exist. If the Church did not exist then why did he claim in a letter that he the Bishop of Rome had a higher authority over the Church of Corinth then the Bishop of Corinth Himself. Look up Flavius, he was a Jewish Roman Historian who touches upon the subject of Christianity in his histories.

10. No we have not agreed that. I said that Evil is the absence of good. I also said that doing nothing is either good or bad depending on the circumstances. I was trying to show that there is no nuetral ground in regard towards good and evil. HE tolerates the existance of the creature doing the evil since he loves them becuase he created them. He does not tolerate the evil, i.e. Satan is in hell. Humans are given until the end of there lives to make up who they are going to hang out with for eternity. Once they die they are either punished or rewarded.

11. I said God's life in the soul is killed/taken away, the soul still exists becuase it is immortal. Not having God's life in your soul when you die means that it becomes a permanent state i.e. you live in hell.

12.The message the bandits preached doesn't suddenly become evil because they preached it. It still is a good thing to give to charity.

13. THe Pope is not a perfect man, when he pronounces on the doctrine of the faith he must be speaking the word of God otherwise this would have been an injustice on the part of God.

14.Yes the spiritual realm is higher than the physical, your eternal life matters more than the one you live now. Please cite for me or atleast point in the right direction as to where the Pope said he is the greatest and most perfect man to have lived.

15.Yet all those countries never came to there aid. When you say letters were sent out do you mean from the tuetons or from the Pope himself. If you mean the Pope then I believe you are mistaken, otherwise once again please point me in the right direction and show where you get this information from.

Salan

I don't think you can say the Church is afault of religion rather that it is a strength. Look at all the other sects of Christianity that have broken away. The Catholic Church has only split once ( we are still in full communion with the Eastern Chruch) and that was becuase men wanted to pursue there own goals and not Gods. Protestant CHurches have split countless times and still continue to do so. They belive in so many different things it is ridiculous for them to claim they are from Christ. Disunity is not the way of God. I can walk into two different evangelical Chruches and they will believe two different doctrines. On so many issues the other Churches have been divided and then they finnaly split up. Only the Catholic Church has remained largely intact and has always stood its ground on contraversial issues. Without the Church the religion would fall apart and eventually just become everyones own different belief system.


Killer

I don't think anyone has come close to topping the greatness of Aristole or Cato. The idea that we are somehow more intelligent then those before us is a false idea. If Christianity is so crazy as you seem to think it is how did 12 uneducated men manage to convert the entire Roman empire. An empire whose greatness has never been matched. How come the educated men of the 1600's like Da Vinci and Michael Angelo fell for this religion if it was so stupid. Unless of course you are claiming that the average man nowdays is smarter than Da Vinci.

[Unkn0wn]

Topic split, it was getting way off-topic in the WW2 one.

[Mysthalin]

Unknown, I made another post in that htread while you were moving it, please move it, alright?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Salan

I don't think you can say the Church is afault of religion rather that it is a strength. Look at all the other sects of Christianity that have broken away. The Catholic Church has only split once ( we are still in full communion with the Eastern Chruch) and that was becuase men wanted to pursue there own goals and not Gods. Protestant CHurches have split countless times and still continue to do so. They belive in so many different things it is ridiculous for them to claim they are from Christ. Disunity is not the way of God. I can walk into two different evangelical Chruches and they will believe two different doctrines. On so many issues the other Churches have been divided and then they finnaly split up. Only the Catholic Church has remained largely intact and has always stood its ground on contraversial issues. Without the Church the religion would fall apart and eventually just become everyones own different belief system.


Killer

I don't think anyone has come close to topping the greatness of Aristole or Cato. The idea that we are somehow more intelligent then those before us is a false idea. If Christianity is so crazy as you seem to think it is how did 12 uneducated men manage to convert the entire Roman empire. An empire whose greatness has never been matched. How come the educated men of the 1600's like Da Vinci and Michael Angelo fell for this religion if it was so stupid. Unless of course you are claiming that the average man nowdays is smarter than Da Vinci.

First the reason the Protestant sect is better, because it teaches you to think for your self a question all aspects of the bible. Telling you not to trust a priest because he claims to be called from god.

And to the Genius' you mention yes the average man as a much higher IQ then back then. Also their teachings lead us in our everyday life and education. We read their work and study what they have learned at an early age giving us greater understanding upon their works at a much earlier age. And the educated man of the 1600's were few and far between and to be a scientist often meant death by the hands of the church, and not being a Catholic often meant death.

It was pretty much Catholicism or Death back then, and that means only one choice. With new knowledge means we need to always rethink the old ways.

[Tymathee]

what is the point of this thread anyway?

[Lai]

Religion is stupid.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Religion is stupid.

Religion and Spiritualism is the basis of our civilization

The very morals given to us by religion should be taken to heart (such as the ten commandments and other various ''laws'' of other religions that give us a basis on how to live our life)

Even science should look upon these from time to time as morality may prevent us from creating the next plague or other some such WMD