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[Mysthalin]

They had TV yet look at what happened

As late as 1980, the USSR's citizens enjoyed 1 TV per 100 people. Compare that to today's global average of 55 per 100 people(could be higher by now).

Not to mention that forced atheism had absolutely nothing to do with the deaths you're citing : the whole part where there were civil wars and repressions under a totalitarian government caused these deaths. Oh, also famine.

TV is not some all powerful arbitrator, it is easy for rich men to buy up stations and choose what they do and do not report.

I never claimed it was. TV is a medium through which information is spread - and it can be used to spread propoganda and words of soothing just the same way a priest can spread words of soothing - you thusly do not need to go to mass after a cataclysm to find you're not alone in your plight, and that things will work out eventually. It, just like preachings at the church is a way of keeping the masses at least somewhat in check, even at times of great oppression.
Let's not forget that it is easy for rich(or powerful) men to also buy up priests, and chose what the priest can and can not report. Priests are still people - I'm certain a priest will rather spread lies about supporting the new regime rather than see all of his followers shot by a band of killhappy KGB soldiers.

a war with Afghanistan toppled the Soviet Union.

Absolutely unrelated to the Soviet Union being atheistic. More to do with the Soviet Union following an economic and political regime that just doesn't work.

If I were to use your own kind of reasoning, I could blame religion for half of Europe dieing out during the great plague of 1348-1350. But I'm not intending to be biased, so I will never claim such nonsense.

Mod edit: filtered unnecessary flame.

Mysth reply to mod edit : thanks for editing that word out for something more neutral, was a bit harsh indeed.

[SX23]

And this is what I meant about tolerance and individual need of faith. You still feel the need to follow a god, to have an explanation of what created us and what awaits us once we are dead - it just makes you feel better to have this knowledge. And, seeing as it's not hurting anybody - you're free to keep this faith.

What I'm saying, however, is that if we took away religion from our westernised society - not much would change - we would hardly see change in anything. If religion just "disappeared" right after the fall of the Roman Empire, or during the middle ages - The Armageddon would have come quite a bit earlier than expected.

Mysthalin, religion has already been removed from most institutions, such as law, education and such. Of course, with past abuses from the church and other religious institutions, it's quite justified. However, there IS a side effect that we can observe, even now. The now common, indecency (Considering pass aspects), relations betrayal, and others are now accepted as humane in our society, in the excuse: They have their right to happiness. Even tough I know I am extrapolating on a scenario that could be unlikely, it's also very possible that, with the fact that we now accept those as normal, despite the fact they were repressed in olds days, that, in long term, we start to accept more "bad" precepts, again with the excuse: Their right to happiness. Being a matter of comparison that determines what's "good" and "bad", if we happen to live in a society where everything is equal, it would then lose his moral values and what we might consider his soul before anyone even notice.

Having a need to be able to furnish an explanation to our creation is nothing more than following our mere human nature. In the sense that it only reflects our limited lifespan, as well as  the fact that time is the only one that will ever have a domination on us, therefore making us wonder about our start and ends.

And, a more personal question to end: What do you have faith in, Mysthalin?
Science, due to it's comparative ways, shall never be able to explain the very nature.
As for humanity, it is doomed as the current tendency in the universe is to entropy, evolution being a "soubresaut" in history.
 

[Spartan_Marine88]

If I were to use your own kind of reasoning, I could blame religion for half of Europe dieing out during the great plague of 1348-1350. But I'm not intending to be biased, so I will never claim such nonsense.

I think you should separate Religion from Catholicism at this one, as until that time no other religion practiced such dismal health ideas. The Romans in conjunction with their beliefs and science built wonders that still blow our minds today. It wasn't till the rise of Christians not religion that we fell apart. Due to that alot of the various religions get ignored/bad press due to one giant failure

Also with a pure science point of view, alot of people i know use science especially the "love doesn't exist its just a chemical reaction" to give an excuse to commit adultery, sleep around and be just all around DB's

[Killer344]

----

Hi CubanLynx, please don't smurf on the forums, it isn't allowed.

[CubanLynx]

Sorry thats a computer in another place and when I used to play Eir ages ago. Its locked into that account and I didn't realise.

[Mysthalin]

I agree SX - Religion has more or less so been seperated from government institutions : which kind of ilustrates my point. Though, back in medieval times - religion was a basic necessity if society were to survive.

Indecency, betrayal - things that hurt others can not be considered a person's "right to happiness". No matter what - if today's society is to keep humane, we need to follow our human rights - but by that we also must take note that other people have the exact same rights. In other words - live by the same old principle that religion preached : "Do unto others as you wish others to do unto you". If people themselves aren't capable of upholding these simple rules - today's law institutions can make sure they do.

The need to know isn't as much human nature as it is simple curiosity. Me myself - I'd love to find out how the universe came to be, and what was there before that - but I know that there is no current theory that has been fully proven. Thusly, I simply don't make that much of a deal about something that I simply can't find out. If we'll know - fine, if we don't.. Well, we don't know now - and we're doing fine as is.

What do I have faith in? I have faith in myself : that by my own wit and cunning I can achieve whatever I want or need. I have faith that I can eventually (help) make the world a better place for everyone. I quite frankly just believe in myself.
Science - I generally do believe in it. Not everything claimed by scientists is always true - but science never claims that what it says will be true forever. Scientists even agree nowadays  that just because all water molecules that have been analyzed thusfar have the formula H2O doesn't mean that we can't find something that is absolutely exactly like water, but with a different formula. So.. I guess what I'm trying ot say is that I have faith in progress and change.
As for whether I have faith that there is an intangible entity watching over us(God) - no, I do not have faith in that. It hasn't been proven, nor has it been disproven. I will not claim that God most definitely doesn't exist, but I'm merely more of the opinion that he doesn't.

[CubanLynx]

Mysthalin the mindset that atheism brought i.e. materialistic goods are worth more than human life led to these deaths in Russia and China. The plague was not cause by the mind set of religious people, so your not really following my line of thought. The famine on the other had was caused by dileberate neglect of farm lands so that the atheistic leaders could pursue their own goals.

What do I have faith in? I have faith in myself : that by my own wit and cunning I can achieve whatever I want or need. I have faith that I can eventually (help) make the world a better place for everyone. I quite frankly just believe in myself.

Ever heard the saying "there's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole?"

[SX23]

I agree SX - Religion has more or less so been seperated from government institutions : which kind of ilustrates my point. Though, back in medieval times - religion was a basic necessity if society were to survive.

Indecency, betrayal - things that hurt others can not be considered a person's "right to happiness". No matter what - if today's society is to keep humane, we need to follow our human rights - but by that we also must take note that other people have the exact same rights. In other words - live by the same old principle that religion preached : "Do unto others as you wish others to do unto you". If people themselves aren't capable of upholding these simple rules - today's law institutions can make sure they do.

However, you would agree with me that more instance where ancient beliefs have been controverted are due to the "right to happiness". Such as a men betraying his wife, while external views might say: He has the "right to happiness" with the other women. Or homosexual acceptation, that have also been placed under the "right to happiness" of all individuals. If the tendency continues, we might as well say that we will accept more and more precepts that were considered as bad in the past, leading to the situation I've described earlier on.

[Mysthalin]

Except that, Cuban, communism is about completely negating your own personal wealth for the good of the society. It has nothing at all to do with religion, stop making it seem like it's at all related. People in Russia died because they were shipped off to Syberia, they were shot by the KGB - because the politicians didn't want those people around. Not because atheism was forced. You should also not foget that Christianity wasn't destroyed completely in the USSR - it was just "better" to accept atheism. Nazi Germany was also catholic - yet millions of people died there as well. It's absolutely UNRELATED to religion. I can give you tons of other Catholic leaders that ensured the deaths of thousands of people in pursuit of their own goals - it is simply unrelated to religion(Like, let's say the leaders of all the religious Orders(Templars, Teutons). They were all very much so Catholic).

Let's also not forget the countless civil wars that happened in various Catholic countries, under Catholic leaders - who also pursued their own personal gain. Let's say, for instance - the War of the Roses(you must have heard of that one).

@SX23
No, I don't. Homosexuality and having multiple wives or sex partners existed long before Christianity. I do agree that being untrue to your spouse hurts the spouses feelings(and therefore is unacceptable) - but do remember that you are actually punished by law if you have several wives, and you may well be forced to pay allimony if you divorce your current wife after she found out you were with a hooker.

Being homosexual, on the other hand, doesn't really hurt anyone. It's that person's right to choose - if he enjoys having sex with people of his own sex - let him. As long as he doesn't force you to have sex with him - it's perfectly legal and socially acceptable. If you can't stand someone being homosexual - well, then that is just sad, and you should learn a thing or two about tolerance.

And no, Cuban - I've never heard of the saying, and I have no idea what it means. Nor do I particularly care - biased sayings are more or less so useless to any discussion.

[CubanLynx]

How is making material goods your aim not going to affect your outlook on human life? Once again you totally ignore my point and just say no your wrong without providing a decent reason.

Yes there have been men who were Catholic and who caused death, but that is directly against what they are supposed to believe.

No, Nazis German was not Catholic. Hitler and his group were staunch pagans.

Communism has everything to do with religion. Religion is its main contender since religion, well my one anyway, has always said that there must be limits on government. Communism is against this.

I'm going to stop arguing with you now because its not getting anywhere since you are not hearing me out. You don't even read what I written properly and then you go off on some tangent about what you think I've written.

Your right Computer this thread is getting stupid.

[Mysthalin]

You're the one completely disregarding what I say, and screaming foul when I counter your points.

I never said anything about material goods not affecting your outlook on human life - I was talking about how society wouldn't be as shell-shocked to it's foundations if religion were to disappear, as opposed to the middle ages. We don't need religion as much to maintain social order because we now have a strong enough law system to prevent anarchy, without the need of fear for retribution from a higher entity to keep people in check.

"Supposed to believe" - ideals are never fullfilled, which is my point. They either fail from the start, or somewhere along the way. It is due to one simple reason : they're ideals. Meaning, they're only possible if people were perfect. A perfect Christian would never as much as hurt a fly - but you're never going to find one. Humans have never been perfect - and they likely never will be. If you looked at communism in it's theory (As Marx and Engels thought of it) - it's probably the best form of government ever to have been concieved by man. But the simple truth is that man is not capable of fulfilling this dream.
So what I'm saying is : stop painting Christianity in a light of perfection, while anything that we say in a light of pure gloom. Take all of the facts at face value.

No, Nazis German was not Catholic. Hitler and his group were staunch pagans.

Read up on some memoirs from some WW2 german soldiers that survived the war, will you? You'll find there were quite a lot of nazis on the front line that were staunch Catholics.
Leaders are very rarely strong believers in a faith - if they were, they'd more or less so be useless as leaders : you would not want a king that "turns the other cheek" when his lands are being taken from him. So yeah - saying Hitler didn't believe and thusly all of Nazi Germany didn't is a logical flaw right there.

No, Christianity didn't begin contending the government until Gregory VII claimed that he is higher than Emperor Henry IV. Yet again - it's not Communism as a theory that dienies Christianity. It's the strand of Totalitarism that could be found in the Soviet Regime, which clashes with the Church's sphere of interests that does. Otherwise, Communism's theories bear little to no conflict with religion.

If you wish to stop - it's your choise. I read you out fine, and refute your points. If you don't see that - it's your loss. If you think you're being misunderstood - then try and express yourself better.

@Computer - if you don't have anything to add to the discussion, just keep it to yourself.

[Computer991]

Tbh a religion discussion shouldn't even take place on a forums....Go take this to a PM. you seem to be only arguing with Cublynx unless you're trying to prove something to everyone else i think a PM would be the best place for this

[MetalHead122]

Fuck this shit, im gonna create me own religion!

[Grundwaffe]

Hi CubanLynx, please don't smurf on the forums, it isn't allowed.

Ownd

[Spartan_Marine88]

Fuck this shit, im gonna create me own religion!

Congrats now you have just lowered yourself to the standards of Ron L Hubbard

[thaelmann]

Congrats now you have just lowered yourself to the standards of Ron L Hubbard

or jesus christ...

[Killer344]

Tbh a religion discussion shouldn't even take place on a forums....Go take this to a PM. you seem to be only arguing with Cublynx unless you're trying to prove something to everyone else i think a PM would be the best place for this

Or maybe you just need to take a break from this thread.

[Mister Schmidt]

Or maybe you just need to take a break from this thread. forum.

[Spartan_Marine88]

or jesus christ...

Jesus was just a man, he wasn't the one who promoted his name all over the bible blame the Roman Emperor Constantine

[Computer991]

Or maybe you just need to take a break from this thread.

No u