[cw] Commando sten vs Soldier armor (PE)

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[Smokaz]

epic phailure forum is 200% as active as launcher atm

(4 to 2)

[Demon767]

And without that extra demo charge where would we be? Pretty sure it's been said that units need to be balanced without regard to doctrine unlock.

And your strat would work great as a opening, but what about the rest of the game. If you didn't won the game right with the opening you would have to drop the commandos in during the battle. Frontline's too dangerous and blind drop behind enemy line isn't much better either.

AB paradrop is as good as the glider drop, and on top of that the AB troops are great troops even without the tactical consideration of paradrop.

(oops, made a double post by mistake. Can someone merge the two?)

seriously, elite armor is negligible. you make the rangers sound god like. there lil toy soldiers easy squashed by basic german infantry. AB is the real deal 

[Mysthalin]

Elite armour is in nearly every situation better than AB armour, Demon.

Just sayin'.

[Tymathee]

seriously, elite armor is negligible. you make the rangers sound god like. there lil toy soldiers easy squashed by basic german infantry. AB is the real deal 

if i remember, dont rangers have less health per man than aB do?

Yeah they do, AB get 70, rangers get 65, i know it's only 5 but that can make a difference when u get down to percentages and figure the fact that most rifles do about 5-8 damage.

but anyway. weapons vs elite armor get an accuracy buff when they're standing still and AB armor when moving both 0.75 but same damage modifier vs all weaponbs, but the flamerthrower does an additional .18 vs Elite armor over airborne, which is a flat 1.00 (for some reason i always thought AB were weak vs flamers but no.)

So basically, Rangers are better when still, and basically fighting in cover and AB are best on the move, it's all in how you use them.

i dont see any difference vs tanks, both have .75 acc mod on normal and 1.00 when moving

[Mysthalin]

No tymmie. It means that rangers get the boosts every single second of their existence, while airborne only get them while moving.

[Demon767]

hmm really.. rangers seem to be piss and take damage easily from german weapons

AB seem to dodge all the shit and never get touched unless you get a shell on them

[Firesparks]

hmm really.. rangers seem to be piss and take damage easily from german weapons

AB seem to dodge all the shit and never get touched unless you get a shell on them

easy company give 25% extra health to the AB, which would make them tougher to kill than the Rangers.
Allied grit only give 10% health, although the rifle training/ tank reaper increase the Ranger's killing power.

[Demon767]

without doctrines.

[Mysthalin]

Demon - it's just your subconcience being affected by the years upon years of incorrect whinging that "Airborne have dodge armour".

That and the fact Airborne have no business fighting at short range, unlike rangers - which can ONLY properly fight at short range.

[Demon767]

whatchu talking about willis?

ive never whined bout airborne

[Hicks58]

Could of swore this was a discussion about Commandos tbh.

Well if you give Commandos rifles, the Brits are still boned for a cost effective close range assault unit as even if the stens are an upgrade, it will still be a wasted 165 munitions due to the high cost and poor platform.

[Smokaz]

hmm really.. rangers seem to be piss and take damage easily from german weapons

AB seem to dodge all the shit and never get touched unless you get a shell on them

RRs are usually used in this manner because its the most annoying way to use them

[NightRain]

Could of swore this was a discussion about Commandos tbh.

Well if you give Commandos rifles, the Brits are still boned for a cost effective close range assault unit as even if the stens are an upgrade, it will still be a wasted 165 munitions due to the high cost and poor platform.

People who are against Mandos Rifles constantly say that Commandos are awsome close range unit. Now you declare that they are the worst.

The whole reason why Commandos get rifles is the following: Player can now choose will he get smgs or not. This way Mandos become a solid paradroppable grenade/democharge platform.

[Groundfire]

They're great against wehr and maybe meh vs. PE. I havent checked in awhile. Maybe the reason that Stens suck so much against soldier armor is because in vCoH theres the very large possibility that the brit player could have commandos before PE got their 4th man upgrade, making commandos fight 3 man squads. If the sten wasnt nerfed for this, they'd rip through PE infantry.

3man PE squads are gone. If testing proves appropriate then I think stens should be brought into line with other weapons vs. soldier armor.

Also, maybe commandos should get grenades by default since Stens are a mandatory built in upgrade for commandos. If we are forced to take this built in assault package, i think making grenades default for no muni upgrade would make them cost efficient.

[Hicks58]

People who are against Mandos Rifles constantly say that Commandos are awsome close range unit. Now you declare that they are the worst.

The whole reason why Commandos get rifles is the following: Player can now choose will he get smgs or not. This way Mandos become a solid paradroppable grenade/democharge platform.

Commandos ARE an awesome close range unit... If you get close.

Getting close is an incredibly difficult thing to do against competent players without losing a good portion of the squad (and fire power). Unless of course surprise or general enemy ignorance/busyness is on your side.

They need a price reduction in the MU department or a combat performance boost in the health/armour department to be truly cost effective close combat fighters.

Rangers have incredibly good staying power and can close the distance, affording to lose up to two guys while retaining all their fire power.

Regardless of rifle implementation or not, Commandos really do need something to make their SMG's worth it. It would be saddening to see such a potentially good squad be shunted to something completely, and permanently different when a bit of a tweak could save their current form, and an addition could add to their versatility.

Oh, and for the record, glider dropping is anything but an advantage. It's noisy, the glider is delicate, and after the opening drop, it would be safer and take more or less the same amount of time to just run them on field the normal way. Anything but a team coordinated behind enemy lines mass drop is suicidal.

[Mysthalin]

Demon - I was reffering to the overall mindset people have, not you as an individual. It's the same way with the pak and 57mm. Every axis fanboy keeps bitching the 57mm has more DPS, and AP rounds on top of that - when basic maths proves the pak has nearly the same DPS as the 57mm WHILE the 57mm is using AP rounds.


Hicks - I did not know taking 7-8 seconds to spawn out of the glider(including landing time) takes more time than the usual 30+ seconds of walking from the spawn to the middle of the map(map-dependant). Glider deployment IS a perk, no matter what way you look at it.


No Hicks - just changing the commandos to have the SMGs as an upgrade wouldn't completely shunt the unit into something absolutely different. It would just give more choise to the player. Yes, it is perfectly clear to everyone the SMG commandos aren't worth it - but if we seperate out rifle and SMG commandos - we will have more perspective to work with : we'll know how to set a better, more appropriate price for the SMGs.

[Hicks58]

You haven't used gliders for a while have ya Myst?

Glider drop time is exactly the same as the current call in time for all of your units.

If you drop your gliders half way into the game, it can be up to a 20-30 second wait before they come down. Or instantly if you do it at the start after only one or two call ins. If your glider is called in close to the front lines (Read, CLOSE, not ON) and the front lines shift within those 20-30 seconds... You've potentially wasted those commandos depending on how lucky you are, as any unit is capable of wasting that glider. Add in the fact that they will nearly always take damage upon landing and any enemy contact is very likely to be fatal to the glider. I'd much rather walk on than glider on after the first 15 minutes of the engagement.

Now consider that the units are generally better off as late game shock troops when they are running low on MG's or elite infantry of their own to throw at you, calling them early isn't always the best idea unless you have a specific plan in mind.

If SMG's are left in their current state when rifles are added, the unit would be shunted and there is little argument against that.

Decrease the price of the SMG's as an upgrade OR make the Commandos a better platform to hold said SMG's... And then we are onto something. That something being a versatile platform of support/assault infantry and close combat fighters - Which are worth their price.

[Mysthalin]

OR lets split the commandos from the SMGs and have the SMGs as an upgrade, then tweak the price and see when people will begin using the SMGs with any regularity? If nobody ever uses the SMGs once it's split from the unit - there's something wrong with the SMGs, and it'll just be easier to determine when the SMG is more or less so balanced.




And yes - your units teleport to the frontline once you call them on? Or do they walk the 120+ units of space at a rate of 4 units/sec? I'm somehow inclined to believe my point still stands.

[MittinsKittens]

Also, you're forgetting the immunity you get from the whole game until you glide in.
If you walk it, you're risking getting ambush before you get there, stray pumas/other AI vechs, mines, arty and the list goes on.
The map is a big place, and a lot of stuff can hit the fan before you achieve what you want

[Hicks58]

And if you glider drop mid game, you risk the glider dropping into a hostile situation and falling victim to instant death.

Your squads get ambushed on the way walking in there's a nice and comfortable retreat button which will give you a good chance of getting out of dodge.

Myst... A mid game drop would take roughly the same time to get to the desired location as walking on. The difference is that walking would be safer. Late game would take longer than walking on unless the map was sincerely huge and you'd pushed them to near spawn.

The only advantage would be in the early game... And if Gliders ended up being standardised to a 30 second drop (Which is something that I can see happening when Commandos get looked at again...), they would be riskier and the same duration to call in as walking on.

As for the SMG's themselves, I said if they were left at the same price, as a separate upgrade. A price decrease or a performance increase WOULD make them more appealing.