Reasons why EIR is declining in popularity.

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[Akranadas]

Reasons why EIR is declining in Popularity.

This is an objective review on Europe in Ruins and all my final parting, it is a look back upon what is and the what could have been for this modification. If you don't like to read, then don't post in this thread because I don't want to read your smart ass comments.

Europe in Ruins is, as well all know it a great modification that is perhaps a little a head of its time. It shakes the grounds of what an RTS can be and takes a great game like Company of Heroes and makes it better. But that is where the problems also arise; for you see, Europe in Ruins could have been so much more that it is, and that is why it has failed to get a steady increased player base, regardless of the innovation it carries with it.

You see, Europe in Ruins plays it safe. We, the developers have never dared to break away from the constants that Company of Heroes had put upon us since... forever. We had at our disposal a robust launcher that was coded to handle all sorts of Europe in Ruins visions, but we never strayed from what Relic Entertainment outlined in Company of Heroes. We stuck to the same Factions, the same doctrines, the same units and the same stats, we were basically Company of Heroes with a different way of playing it; and yeah that was good and fun for the most part, but once you had your share of what was there you usually didn't have a need to continue beyond leveling up your basic units. Why did we keep so close to Company of Heroes? Well it all came down to the argument of, making it easy for new players to transition from COH to EIR. Utter Bullshit.

What Europe in Ruins needed to do was break away from the Company of Heroes mold and strike out on its own, this would have further set itself apart from the other Company of Heroes mods. What we needed to do, was from the very start; design what we wanted Europe in Ruins to be and not what had already been. Fldash did a great job in creating Europe in Ruins, but I always saw that as a proof on concept rather than something that could be turned into some new and exciting. When we had a chance to re-do Europe in Ruins, we stuck to his formula and ultimately (I think) shot ourselves in the foot.

We had a chance to take the core concepts of Europe in Ruins and build a totally new game on that, one that would have ultimately been better than the previous Europe in Ruins before that. What we needed to do was throw away the idea of Company of Heroes and strike out on our own. We need to focus on delivering depth of game play through totally unique Doctrine. So If a player picked Airborne, it shared little with a player who chose Armour, this would have allowed us to develop some truly fun gameplay and not run into the problems we've faced when trying to force Relic's ideas of those doctrines into our system. Airborne could have been totally Airborne from the get go, Armour all about Amour, Infantry about large masses of Riflemen and who even knows, We could have made a Engineers Doctrine, or Scout Doctrine; each with their own units; upgrades and doctrines.

Units would have been different to each sub-faction, even if they looked different it would still help immerse the player into the forces they had and help sell the idea of the player being the commander of their own company. Instead we decide to follow suit with relic and I think we suffered dearly for it due to players generally knowing what is what before they even played the game. Beyond learning the way EIR is played, there was no discovery of new units nor was there any real sense of wonder. When you built a Sherman in COH it was the same as a Sherman in EIR, but what if the Sherman in EIR was just a cog in your Armoured Battalion, what if that Sherman was a command vehicle. What if you decide you didn't want to play either of the 3 doctrines and instead saw Light Scout Doctrine; which had all the light vehicles and was based around fast attack and scouting.

Much like a classed based shooter, Europe in Ruins could have had a large amount of subtle complexity with how different doctrines interacted with each other and ultimately relied on each other. Instead, each doctrine is essentially the same except for a little flavour; and all doctrines can pretty much stand up on their own regards of what doctrines their team mates are playing. Which is sad, considering what a MMORTS can be, and what we have now; Europe in Ruins could have been the prototype of something much much bigger... if we weren't shy from stepping away from CoH.

There were many times where I had suggested the improvements above as well as many other to help make Europe in Ruins (in my view) a much better game than it is. Unfortunately they never seemed to be listened to with as quite as much interest as the ideas for 'Flamethrower Riflemen' or 'Howitzer Nebles'. I put an awful lot of hard work into trying to keep this modification going for as long as possible. But when you see idea after idea get knocked back for no particular reason other than the RGD coders wanting to do their own thing, you get disheartened. It's disheartening when you can see what Europe in Ruins can be, while others simply want it to stay the same, yet in the same breath think the reason it's failing is due to lack of advertisement.

Europe in Ruins is a outcome of good innovation coupled with the attitude of safety. It's not daring, it's not truly new and it's not truly ground breaking. It's safe and that is why it has suffered. If it had been designed with the ideas I laid out before you, we could have seen Europe in Ruins be more than persistant Company of Heroes and truly been Europe in Ruins, a MMORTS.

[rifle87654]

So you mean EiR is going down because the devs want to keep it the same?

[Hicks58]

Heh, I've always wanted to see EiRR be much more flavoured than it currently is...

Always wanted to see Commandos be a true Commando doctrine, raids, hit and run, sabotage, etc... Instead it's just normal Brits with glider dropped Tommies with stens. (Feel free to insert the other units here with a similiarly dull outlook)

Sure, there are the occasional innovative ideas that break the normal mould a bit, but there really isn't enough. Commando Sniper was heading in a nice direction, but it's just a nifty little add on.

I could do the same style description for each of the other doctrines but heh, there's already one big wall of text here.

Making each doctrine be specific in it's role would of helped make a good mod great, and when the warmap^TM finally came about, the individual style of the doctrines would of meant that a side would have had to work together properly to get anywhere.

Making things as noob-friendly as possible is a good way to dumb it down far too much and lose what you were originally trying to create. If something has a hard learning curve it isn't inherently bad, it just takes a while to get used to.

I'd rather take a while to get to grips with something and be rewarded with good gameplay, then get into something quickly and it feel a bit samey in a short period of time (For EiRR... Once you've got an account to level 9, and then a week or so once your tired of said account)

[Grundwaffe]

Lol, i'll be excited to see if EiR gets populated by the warmap.

[Smokaz]

Is it even a current goal of EIRR to have much of a playerbase other than 'testers', or even expand it?

Wouldnt top priority then be getting out the warmap, which actually serves to create nenewable content in the form of wars and one side winning towards a reset? Or at the very least create a makeshift one: just add warmap mode in the launcher, some numbers on the left side of the forum and a automatic reset when one side wins? All warmap mode needs to do to be a perfect temporary solution, is to control the timer of a defence/attack/ME game that affects the controlled number of territories.

This type of developer dissonance is exactly why EIRR needs to have a much more transparent development, nobody knows wtf is going on in the secret assforum. Nobody can really support akrandas or be against him, or support one development direction and oppose the others, because the inner workings/discussions are not public at all. When this arrives, its too late and Akranadas is leaving making the small team smaller.

Also players leave because of the methhead type of patching. EIRR patching is like a drug freak, spiralling out of control 2-3 weeks with tons of posts and patching and then 2 months there's only a few headsups and no patching, probably at least in part caused by how hugely EIRR developing seems to hinge on individuals who can't be active all the time.

[Mysthalin]

There's two more reasons why EiR is declining.

They both have parachutes.

[Smokaz]

Take OMG for instance, they have a large large development team much larger than EIRR and it seems way more transparent to me. Also a lot of the regulars there who post and keep the community active, have access to the thoughts and discussions of the developers. Here we don't, we dont know where our coders/scar/devs are, and even though we love them and love the mod we just dont know how to pitch in because there's almost nothing being discussed in public.

If patching stops because there isnt enough people to do it, or those that are active arent allowed to, it should be a EIRR public community discussion about it, not hid away or ignored.

If patching stops because there nobody knows what to patch in internally, this needs to be made public as well so one side of a argument can gather enough support to be used.

Misten is also spot on about the macro-reasons for why EIRR struggles to achieve a larger playerbase below.

[TheLastArmada]

There's two more reasons why EiR is declining.

They both have parachutes.

Dragsters and Base jumpers ? 

[sgMisten]

These are micro-reasons why EiR is declining in popularity. The macro view, from a list of games:

Poor developer support to continue EiR or support modding
Successful examples: Blizzard (use map settings maps, for e.g. that spawned DoTa through excellent matchmaking)

Our EiR Devs are not getting paid
Not hired by big companies (e.g. Valve software hiring mod teams)

Not casual enough
Counterstrike made it big, DoTa made it big - easy for masses to get into, CoH is not.

Not hardcore enough
Plenty of World War 2 RTS options out there to dilute attention from CoH. However, for space sim genre, very limited, hence why FreeSpace 2 mod scene is extremely active and alive even up till today. Being open sourced helps.

I must say though, there's been long droughts of no active development that don't help either.

[rifle87654]

I'd say make a new poster about the upcoming thing.
Make us impressed.
And do things faster.
Just like writing composite in Chinese class.

Writing composite is about making the judges surprised, exaggerate an ordinary thing to make it extrodinary.

And my teacher exaggerats on punishments.

[MittinsKittens]

It also doesn't help that our main two head guys at the moment (EiRMod and Bobsmith), last time I checked (yesterday), they both haven't even touched the forums for about a week which doesn't help towards the mod...
I must agree with everyone here though, I really wish they did break away from the mould and got loads of new units/tanks into this game. Would make this mod pretty epic in my eyes.
New doctrines (like that recon doctrine) sounds pretty awesome too. I would reckon that would of been an amazing direction to take this :3

[TheLastArmada]

It also doesn't help that our main two head guys at the moment (EiRMod and Bobsmith), last time I checked (yesterday), they both haven't even touched the forums for about a week which doesn't help towards the mod...
I must agree with everyone here though, I really wish they did break away from the mould and got loads of new units/tanks into this game. Would make this mod pretty epic in my eyes.
New doctrines (like that recon doctrine) sounds pretty awesome too. I would reckon that would of been an amazing direction to take this :3

Indeed much like salan and FoF... taking things into a new direction

[rifle87654]

Or you should just cooperate with other mods.(Not the OMG.)
But I remember when I was loading an EF map.
I saw an OMG marker showed up.
So I suggest cooperate with blitzkrieg mod.
Love the 1 shot kill.
But most important is I never feel bored about it.
There's so many thing that I can use.
So diversity sometimes = fun.
And I always look forward to airborne thompsons.
Make more game modes!
Like the one I suggested -- Pocket
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14292.0

[MittinsKittens]

Or you should just cooperate with other mods.(Not the OMG.)

Teaming up with OMG could be a good move though maybe, Since honestly, there is NOTHING different between the two communities, Every new game that we've been interested in, they've been interested in too (WoT, CoHo ect).
Apperently, they're kinda even going through the same kind of phrase as us ("The Mod is dying").
Least thats the impression I got after being in their mod all night trying it out and stuff the other day...
Meh, Who knows...

[Spartan_Marine88]

Teaming up with OMG could be a good move though maybe, Since honestly, there is NOTHING different between the two communities, Every new game that we've been interested in, they've been interested in too (WoT, CoHo ect).
Apperently, they're kinda even going through the same kind of phrase as us ("The Mod is dying").
Least thats the impression I got after being in their mod all night trying it out and stuff the other day...
Meh, Who knows...

This might make sense if the fact that EIRR and OMG arent both in existance because of a massive split in an earlier mod.

And the reason the fanbase is lower right atm, is because of waiting for update (RCA promised months ago, and Warmap)

[FailHammer]

Listen, I have played this mod longer than most except the old guard. We had a website and a shit launcher, but the game was incredible. We didnt have new units like airborne snipers to make it interesting, we had solid gameplay and balance(at times). That is what makes or breaks the game. I didnt quit playing vCoH because they didnt have enough new units, I quit because i got tired of the shitty gameplay and balance. The warmap is a great addition to add goals and targets to the game, but balancing the shit out and concentrating on what we do best is the ticket to being magnificent. Now we have even more potential to be great as I think when Reinforcements came out we had the right idea about balance and gameplay. We have gotten a little sidetracked but we are still on course. Concentrate on the basics and worry about the bling later. Suck it.

[Groundfire]

Take OMG for instance, they have a large large development team much larger than EIRR and it seems way more transparent to me. Also a lot of the regulars there who post and keep the community active, have access to the thoughts and discussions of the developers. Here we don't, we dont know where our coders/scar/devs are, and even though we love them and love the mod we just dont know how to pitch in because there's almost nothing being discussed in public.

If patching stops because there isnt enough people to do it, or those that are active arent allowed to, it should be a EIRR public community discussion about it, not hid away or ignored.

If patching stops because there nobody knows what to patch in internally, this needs to be made public as well so one side of a argument can gather enough support to be used.

Misten is also spot on about the macro-reasons for why EIRR struggles to achieve a larger playerbase below.

+1000

Advertisement is not the issue. Me and computer are in sleeper cell mode cause I have absolutely nothing to show new people. Every time I put out a shoutcast, update the moddb page and plaster that sucker over all the CoH site, I guarantee you I get a dozen or more people to try the mod.

Smokaz is 100% right, if its one thing thats keeping this mod down its the lack of motivation from the development team as of late, the sporadic patch process, and no new content, and no notification when everyone decides to leave to do RL stuff.
Every single sentence in arkarandas' post points to dev disillusionment and pride issues; and every internal tiff hurts the community as a whole and we are not productive. (guess what, my ideas arnt used either, i still do all I can to promote the mod when there's something worth promoting)

Edit- P.S. if THIS ^^^^^ is not the case, then a post every now and then explaining the situation would go along way for dispelling this illusion, cause as I said before, we dont know a thing about whats going on!

The sad thing is that there is nothing the remaining small active community can do to alleviate this problem because of exactly what smokaz said, we dont know what the fuck is going on ever.

If patching stops because there isnt enough people to do it, or those that are active arent allowed to, it should be a EIRR public community discussion about it, not hid away or ignored.

This should happen every time someone wants to take a break, preferably with a list of instructions for a replacement to follow, so we can keep on trying to balance.

I get it, people get busy, I am busy, but this mod is a commitment. If you are bored with it, either leave or do something to improve the situation. However, the community should not be left in the cold because all the work gets put on a dev, who decides he doesn't need help then goes on vacation for the next month or whatever the reason is this time.

Whatever, im not pissed at everyone, its an observation and  i just dont like sitting here with my thumb up my butt waiting for some progress. Its a waste of my time.

[Hicks58]

Listen, I have played this mod longer than most except the old guard. We had a website and a shit launcher, but the game was incredible. We didnt have new units like airborne snipers to make it interesting, we had solid gameplay and balance(at times). That is what makes or breaks the game. I didnt quit playing vCoH because they didnt have enough new units, I quit because i got tired of the shitty gameplay and balance. The warmap is a great addition to add goals and targets to the game, but balancing the shit out and concentrating on what we do best is the ticket to being magnificent. Now we have even more potential to be great as I think when Reinforcements came out we had the right idea about balance and gameplay. We have gotten a little sidetracked but we are still on course. Concentrate on the basics and worry about the bling later. Suck it.

I was around 2 weeks before Reinforcements hit. I know what some of the old game play was like, and like now, the core game play is sound - Besides a few glaring balance issues.

The basics are already fine with a couple of number tweaks, what the mod needs to do is expand.

Pulling the "I was there, bow to my opinion" card, is a pretty poor card to play when we are discussing how to potentially improve the mod. Something needs to change, even if it's just how open the mod team is, basically saying everything is fine and carry on wouldn't be a very productive thing to do here.

[Sach]

I more or less completely disagree with Akranadas, I think moving away from core CoH gameplay has always damaged the mod.

The 'heyday' of EIR in my view was early to mid 2008 with a renaissance when EIRR launched and a notable showing during TLS. It wasn't because of new units or doctrines that were nothing like COH it was due to an engaged playerbase and a positive community. There was very little smurfing, stomping was seriously frowned upon, there was a big enough playerbase to control and dilute assholes and there was a strady stream of new players.

It was the little things, it was always the little things. Getting your name up in lights for the first time because you won your last 3 games. Getting stomped by an old timer who then took the time to explain how you could improve. Seeing yourself on the scoreboard for the first time.

I would agree with what a lot of people have said about Dev lack of communication and the mod seemingly stagnating but I think the community is more toxic.

I would say focus on the back end, engage the community, ban smurfs and griefers outright where possible and prioritise things like the warmap and matchmaking. The mod will never be balanced.

[salan]

I love ya akranadas, but if this is another "I quit" message, please... just remove your links from EIR and move on.  Being unhappy with the outcome of EiR is something we have all had the joy of living through to one degree or another and seriously the last rage message is just getting repeated at this point.  I learned from my experiences, I just don't care anymore.  I don't own the mod, and until I do I don't invest my efforts into it, because it will never be what I think it should be.  And that's OK.  I play for free, I get to be part of this awesome community. 

EiRR has a waiting and willing population, they simply need to get off their asses and do the work.  This time last year was one of the best for EiRR in population, why?  Because I was patching it almost daily.  People LOVED progress.  Small content updates daily.  One of the reasons Fall of France has a following is because of that exact same reason. The downloads suck, I admit it.  But everyone wants to try something new...  I was roasted for that outlook, for implementing what was on the books for EiRR in record speed.  I learned from that and took Fall of France in a completely different direction then EiR.

EiRR by design is a long drawn out mmo war game.   Imo its great for the first few times through, after that.. Its more a detriment unless there are new things being added.  And the ONLY thing that has been getting added into EiRR are rgd edits, and its awesome launcher functionality.  Sadly for such a great game it has had such hardships getting a active scar coder since fldash realized he was better off slitting his wrists then putting up with us.  And even then the RGDs up until very recently have always just been reworks of the same thing.. new doctrines, but the same doctrines..  new layouts, but still defined by previous layouts..

imo.  EiRR will ONLY die once the development completely stalls and stops, which is sad due to all the people willing to do the extra works like groundfire's shoutcasts.  Take the loss of vent for instance, even after how many people donated to keep the mod going over the last while, there hasn't been a vent for a week or so, it will be resolved shortly and it was simple life mix-ups rather then lack of funding, yet the COMMUNITY lives on.  This temp vent is full of familiar names, they are simply waiting... for something more, something new, a reason to play their favorite game, AGAIN.