Vet Rework

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[Unkn0wn]

The way it's looking right now vet 5 units will be slightly better than vet 3 units. But all vet requirements are going up so vet 4 will be quite uncommon and vet 5 rather rare.

[Tymathee]

I like my vet tree idea over vet 5 units...not just cuz its my idea but it makes for more customization and who doesn't love customization.

Heck if you could combine the two. Vet 5 + Vet Tree that'd be even sweeter.

[Spartan_Marine88]

The way it's looking right now vet 5 units will be slightly better than vet 3 units. But all vet requirements are going up so vet 4 will be quite uncommon and vet 5 rather rare.

i like this, gives you some pride over your vet.

Lets be honest, vet 3 is like meh...

[VERTIGGO]

The way it's looking right now vet 5 units will be slightly better than vet 3 units. But all vet requirements are going up so vet 4 will be quite uncommon and vet 5 rather rare.

Maybe I just have different priorities than most people here, but I hate the fact that even lvl 9 companies have to whore vet to stay competitive. I know I play mostly to try and succeed tactically, and if no amount of "generalship" is effective simply because the other guy is a vet whore, then it's not enjoyable.

Of course you can say "well if you hate it so much go find some other game" but thats not the point. I love so many things about EIRR, but the whole gimmicky game of hording and hunting is just not one. I don't play to make the other guy suffer, I play to enjoy myself.

[Unkn0wn]

Well it's the prime persistancy aspect of this mod, I think the hording and hunting is something you just have to come to accepted, I don't see what the alternative would be.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Well it's the prime persistancy aspect of this mod, I think the hording and hunting is something you just have to come to accepted, I don't see what the alternative would be.

Tbh the alternative is VCOH, and thats not an option lol

And in a lot of ways the whole hunting and hoarding is a whole other sub tactic. Kill someones vet 3, and possibly get them mad enough to charge on mass into defenses they otherwise would have avoided.

[Killer344]

In fact, suicide companies are far more effective than vet farming atm.

[lionel23]

I loved my suicide company prior to the wipe, no longer possible but consisted of 5 howitzers (the only thing at vet 3 and with vet), and 25+ squads of engineers with flamers and mines and demons and riflemen who had free vet 2 sticky bombs.  That was probably the most enjoyable company I've ever played, and all my vet was in 5 units. ^^

[Tymathee]

In fact, suicide companies are far more effective than vet farming atm.

agreed. my commando company is kinda suicidish and it's doing prety well 2-0 i have one vet 2 unit and that was random.

[Smokaz]

Let's face it, unless veterancy is buffed to the point where FOR EXAMPLE your vet 2/vet 3 grens becomes significantly stronger than it's investment at vet 0 meaning it can be allowed to dish out more damage to enemy resources before it is retreated/spent, it's going to feel blurry whether or not just suiciding is better during capping attempts, recrewing or letting it die for the lmg/shrek drop chance you possibly can pick up and continue using or just to make sure it deals damage to the end.


Maybe the coders need to advertise their justification of the veterancy more because I do not think current veterancy is exceptionally weak, or bad. It seems overall balanced. But more than ever suicidal play is preferred for the vast majority of units compared to the old dogma of preservation, so player's cant be overly convinced.

[Unkn0wn]

We can't significantly 'buff' the vet bonuses to be honest, stronger veterancy creates an even bigger advantage between vet horders and non vet horders, That's why we opted for easy to gain, not soo super vet.

In the old EIR you would automatically gain some minor xp per game played, this way you were automatically 'tricked' into caring for your units. You would gain vet without specifically focussing on it, unlike in the current iteration, and once you did you would try to keep it alive.

[Smokaz]

At least vet hoarding is in the spirit of the mod.. is gameplay where a lot of units are throwaway, really in the spirit of a persistent mod?

Games used to be won and lost on the willingness to RISK your vet when it was more valuable.. making people Tym Retreat their vet 3 blob carried a big resource loss for them

[VERTIGGO]

Suicide companies definitely work, but in almost every case it's because of the very nature of spam... lionel you said it yourself, the advantage to suicide is you aren't even required to counter everything, you just game the game to win. It's definitely an interesting way to play, but I enjoy combined arms and teamwork. Also, it's a spectrum between never risking veterans and suiciding everything, it's not like I have to choose one or the other. I like having persistency and growing fond of my companies, but I don't like to baby them either.

Honestly I would be happy as long as every unit had a similar chance of survival, but it's just not so at the moment. A dirt cheap rifle squad can vet up quickly and retreat any time it's down to 50% (unless hit by incendiary arty), but an expensive panther or tiger can be randomly immobilized or buttoned and wiped out without any chance of decrewing and retreating. If crew retreat were implemented it would give armor (tank based) players a chance to retain their prized units. At the moment, it makes no sense to try and vet a panther, because one gimmick can remove it from existence, so I use pershings, because there's no fear of being trapped as long as I use common sense about pulling it off the field.

[Unkn0wn]

At least vet hoarding is in the spirit of the mod.. is gameplay where a lot of units are throwaway, really in the spirit of a persistent mod?

Games used to be won and lost on the willingness to RISK your vet when it was more valuable.. making people Tym Retreat their vet 3 blob carried a big resource loss for them

So what do you suggest?

If crew retreat were implemented it would give armor (tank based) players a chance to retain their prized units.

This is actually something we have been wanting to do for a very long time

[AmPM]

So what do you suggest?

Implement the old, if your unit is lost, its gone from a limited pool until it refreshes again. =)

Also, make vet more important. The game is about persistence right? Make keeping your units alive important.

Change game modes from "hold all teh sectors!" to an objective based system. This way you are forced to defend or attack an area to hold it, much like an actual mission. Flanking and such is still important to attack from a different direction or to attack their rear echelon units.

[VERTIGGO]

This is actually something we have been wanting to do for a very long time

Yeah I remember discussions about it, but it seemed like there wasn't enough energy to actually change it. The mechanics are possible; Blitzkrieg (I think that's the one) mod has used it for a long time.

I know I hate on button a lot, but honestly it's just the use of it for griefing that irks me. When I play Brit I use it all the time, because it's a well implemented part of their system, but it's completely unfair to a panther player that he can be sniped at full health when a responsible pershing player has nothing to fear.

[Smokaz]

There is no devil on one shoulder and angel on the other, players do not randomly travel in a single direction.. for one thing to be buffed another thing has to be reduced. If suicidal gameplay is the norm which EIRRMOD wants players to act in according with, then the rewards for that has to outshine the disadvantages and the opposite (vet-retaining gameplay) is equally motivated.

EIRR is a easy to affect community, word travels between players... suicidal play never got some kind of intellectual realization, it was a "fun" way to play, some players preferred it etc. Yet over time it has become more popular than the opposite. Is it a fluctuation or the evolved perceived "best way of playing".

Maybe the coders need to advertise their justification of the veterancy more because I do not think current veterancy is exceptionally weak

If the lead devs believe veterancy is worth it perhaps they should post some of urging about it, some kind of advertising post about vet lol saying how great it is, because I do not think players are convinced that retaining veterancy and playing "for the next battles as well" is even a reasonable alternative to "win now, disregard reduced vet gain".

Take vet 2 for volks, 1.15 bonus. So a 7% increase when moving and a actually lower bonus than 15% staying still because of how range reduces the base accuracy in coh.. so unnoticeable. The most noticeable buffs are the ones that affect upgrade uses because it allows a player to easily see how he is gaining "more resources" for his vet 2 unit.

[Unkn0wn]

Implement the old, if your unit is lost, its gone from a limited pool until it refreshes again. =)

Honestly, this doesn't work with basic mainline infantry. You run out of riflemen, what are you going to use as mainline infantry as an armour player? Even in the old EIR you would never run out of mainline units, except in its very very old iteration where you literally didn't get anything back until the next 'turn'. And it's the suicidal behaviour with these mainline units that is the issue at hand here.

Many players probably don't know about that very old iteration, but basically it meant that if you lost stuff in your company you'd first have to play another 2 games (or wait 24 hours) before you could resupply again (resupply would give you back your resources for the lost units) This meant that after a battle in which you took heavy casualties you'd have to fight another 2 games or so with an undersupplied company. (Which obviously gave you a huge handicap against supplied companies) As a result, most players just stopped playing until the next 'turn' came in and gave them their resources back.

Anyway, from a developer's perspective I think the solution can (and likely will) be as follows:
- 5 Vet levels, with significantly higher vet level requirements and slightly better bonuses, overall at the top level
- XP is gained completely in game again, no more purchasing (or the current stopgap 'upgrading' for free.)
- Minor xp bonus to all units that are fielded in a game, even if they didn't kill anything. (In the old EIR this was 3 xp)

All that should go a long way in solving the problem. I think, especially when vet still costed something, most people simply didn't bother with it. It was a risky side-investment they did not want to make and considered a waste of PPs. Even currently there's still the psychological barrier that they have to go in and 'upgrade' to get the vet, where as when it flows naturally and free players will be more tempted to start caring for something they would otherwise not care about.

[Smokaz]

The question could easily be sublimated into the following: Should a vet 3 volk be able to beat 2 rifles? Where is the golden point where veterancy is still received by players and considered superior to not gaining it but winning here and now? Certainly its lower than one volk squad going from 50% chance of loss vs one squad, to defeating two of them, but from a reasonable perspective it seems quite a bit higher than 1.15 accuracy at vet 2...

Strong (Muscle?) Veterancy slows down gameplay, it directly opposes suicide tactics. Harsh limits on resupply slows it down as well but makes it "not a choice" while strong veterancy still gives you the choice while appealing to persistancy with one thing being "better".

[Unkn0wn]

There's a very very fine line between too powerful vet and "insignificant vet". However, when vet is completely free and gained normally there is less of a need for stronger vet as the player doesn't need to invest anything in order to get it. We need to be more wary of vet being too strong, as that would create a significant ingame, non-skill related, discrepancy between new and older players (assuming those older players vet horde).

Although with the changes to the grinding system, veterancy will become more or less the ONLY non-skill related discrepancy between players, leading to a much more level playing field than present currently.