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Author Topic: The R/ME mode spam start, how to sniff out and deal with it  (Read 20298 times)
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11452



« on: December 22, 2010, 12:28:34 am »


SPAM - IT COMES IN MANY COLOURS, BUT ITS ALL BASICALLY THE SAME



In EIRR you will encounter people who run companies refered to as 'spam' companies or 'gimmicks'. This term is meant to coin and categorize companies whose main attributes whom people find annoying to fight or describe similarily as:

1. Abusive
2. Lame
3. Overpowered
4. Gay
5. Griefing etc

The real difficulty with facing a spammer is that you usually don't know it's coming. When it's coming you often find yourself with having units on the field who aren't able to respond by either being outnumbered or outclassed by a combination. The example is that most wehr won't start with much more AT than a shrek squad and a pak, and while this easily can fend off a single sherman, if there's double shermans, three m8s or alternatively 8 flame engineers charging towards your 25 pop starting callin with a balanced mix...

Usually the result of the spam gimmick type of opening is that you lose expensive units or otherwise are unable to recrew weapons, or in some way losing a lot of resources without causing damage back. There's not much point in debating what happens further as if you already locked on to this thread you know what it's about.

The main purpose of this guide is to make the game enjoyable by using some simple tricks to fight spam. A lot of them are dirty, but then again if you're looking to me for advice you've already turned yourself in, haven't you?





« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 06:23:42 pm by Smokaz » Logged

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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11452



« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 12:40:04 am »

The Gruesome R or ME mode spam start

"I paid 94 PP for 30 greyhounds!" - Hicks





There are three basic ways to ensure yourself to not be raped by a spam start. Two of them are dependant on your skill, and the third entirely on luck.

The skill-based ones are:

1.  Scouting successfully, being able to judge what is needed and then call it on.
2.  Bring a naturally strong starting core that isn't defeatable by any other starting core by defeault

The luck-based one is:

3. Always start with some retarded spam yourself and hope it's something that will overpower his spam.


1) Scouting successfully, how do I do it?

Well if you are lower level or have doctrine abilities, it pays off in almost all situations and games to use a recon run to see the start of your enemy. Listen near their spawns early game even if you don't have one. Do you hear a tank? Do you hear that special marder or IST sound? Information, baby. Learn to recognize the unit sounds. Sound is important in all modern games. Once you hear something - something at all, it's time to send that recon plane aflyin'.

This isn't the real safeguard though. The above assumes you have a recon run or a MI available. You won't always have that. There could be equally leveled companies facing each other.

If you want to be 100% prepared, informed,and without reason to cry on the forums later, the easiest way to go about with your thing is to realize that information is King in EIRR.



The spam insurance. Using a spotter.

Starting with two bikes – maybe a bike and just a halftrack to ensure you can take a shot or two – and promptly head towards the enemy. Go look at his start, and if possible the start of his teammate. If you see nine m8s from three players: No, it's not a good idea to start with a mixed 25 pop callin like people USUALLY do.

«But Smokaz, this forces me into a game I dont want to play. I want stra-tegy»

Well, look at it this way: the enemy is definitely using strategy – or rather – their strategy is  underestimating you. They are saying to themself (and silently to you): we will take a chance here, either because we believe ourself so good or our starts so strong that we can overcome anything.  We wll forego flexibility for maximum power at what we want to do. If you can just spot his bet and just go all in to counter it, and it has a clear weakness, you should be able to punish him for it.

2) Bringing a naturally strong core that can't be smashed to pieces by anything easily

For wehrmacht this means bringing a Panzer IV naturally. Allies are less worried about the spam start because generally they don't face the same kind of risk with their "spam" type of units.  The panzer IV is not great at AT duty but it can in support with a shrek squad and a MG fend off almost everything. If you bring something like:

Panzer IV
Double Mp44 stormtrooper
Double Shrek Stormtrooper
Flame Pio with goliath

It's hell of expensive. But it's not defeatable easily. It's not something they can just rush up to and kill with ease. Panzer IV + stormies handle any allied armor in the same pop range, hell even a pershing start can be outmaneuvered or resisted. And you're sitting on all the cards. This EXACT type of start obviously is only available to blitz.

It's been EIRR dogma that wehrmacht has had munitions heavy starts because they can kit out so much firepower. This is still possible with defensive and blitzkrieg and I very much doubt that terror will have problems because they have the best offmaps and usually the toughest/highest damage dealing wehrmacht infantry which means they get even more use out of heavy-munitions starts.

Alternatively you can go for a bait start. Like you are able to call out 4 volks with faust and a pak. Generally 4 volks will have enough firepower to ward off enemy infantry. A tank start will not have a easy time flanking a pak having 4 faust volks surronding it, and even when they swallow it they didn't hurt you much.

For allies safe starts differ, but generally having for instance a upgunned sherman, a handheld AT squad and a bar squad is a pretty safe start which let you move around and fight on your own terms, and isn't that easy to just completely smash if you play defensive with it.

3) Rock.. Scissor.. V1 STRIKE IN YOUR FACE

Just spam yourself. If you see those monkeys are bringing mass rifles, just bring a ostwind, a mg and a flamer and just annihliate their stuff viciously. If its all armor starts just call on max AT. The trick is lose just enough to be able to call in new counters for the inevetiable "now we spam something else" which good players will do, while still hurting them badly. There's nothing wrong with having extreme counters on the field. Don't always expect your "good choice" of counters to always defeat greater amounts of units.

It's a very common trick employed by spam teams to fight in waves of either infantry or vehicles - if you can predict that they are coming and get up some mines etc - or at least have some AT - half the job is done.

The important thing is to make a concious choice. If you know a swarm of unupgraded rifles will try to decrew paks after vehicle rushes fail - use stugs, geschutz and marders instead of paks, shreks and 50mms.


« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 01:23:59 am by Smokaz » Logged
rifle87654 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1107


« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 07:08:30 am »

Not bad...
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Does he have a problem?
Anyway he's hilarious.
Hicks58 Offline
Development
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Posts: 5423



« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 07:31:10 am »

I like it Smokaz, nice job there tbh.

A point or two though...

Newer players are not going to be fully aware of what counters what gimmick, a second thread on the more commonly used gimmick starts and their counters would be ideal.

For example, the infamous 3 Greyhound start can be countered by a PIV and an Ostwind, well micro'd. So on and so forth.

My other point?

It was 84 pp for 18 Greyhounds. :p
Logged

I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
At the end of the day, however, stormtroopers finally got the anal invasion with a cactus they have richly deserved for years.
Jizz Magnet Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 7


« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 07:36:35 am »

Still doesn't make it fun to face, which is  my main complaint about gimmick/spam companies. Spam starts tend to be followed by spam companies which is shit boring.
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Hicks58 Offline
Development
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Posts: 5423



« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2010, 07:40:50 am »

Yup, I hate spam companies myself. I used it that one time purely because I'd had enough and I had a shocking amount of spare PP's.

Unfortunately, the best thing to do about spam companies, is to do some recon, see what they are spamming, and spam their counters.

Balanced companies seldom work well in EiRR these days unless the people spamming against you are incompetent or you play like a Korean on speed.

Roll on the pool patch...
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smurfORnot Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4719



« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 08:28:47 am »

except when u spam counter,sooner or later,u will run out of that counter..while spam probably wont run out...

for example,balanced PE will probably need to have quite a bit of fuel in marders,panther etc. if I face pure inf spam with that company,even though I do have quite ai power,sooner or later,u will run out of your ai troops and will be left with at stuff like 50mm,marder,panther which do shit to all that inf. ..and on other hand If I try to spam shit load of inf,ist's etc to counter that shit,when I face t17,stag,m8 etc spam,it will simple run me over...
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RoyalHants Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2124



« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 08:33:33 am »

except when u spam counter,sooner or later,u will run out of that counter..while spam probably wont run out...

for example,balanced PE will probably need to have quite a bit of fuel in marders,panther etc. if I face pure inf spam with that company,even though I do have quite ai power,sooner or later,u will run out of your ai troops and will be left with at stuff like 50mm,marder,panther which do shit to all that inf. ..and on other hand If I try to spam shit load of inf,ist's etc to counter that shit,when I face t17,stag,m8 etc spam,it will simple run me over...
its srange brits got paks and support weapons which are cheaper and more usefull than emplacements and veichles but PE did not
Logged

Yeah calbanes, I mean - some people like smokaz are still yet to win a single game, even though they've been around here for years.

Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9049


« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2010, 09:08:05 am »

Still doesn't make it fun to face, which is  my main complaint about gimmick/spam companies. Spam starts tend to be followed by spam companies which is shit boring.

Sorry, but I can't look seriously at anyone claiming "gimmick" on me when I use the most bread and butter of Wehrmacht units : grenadiers, followed by a single flamethrower halftrack and 5 bikes for scouting/sniper killing duty.

Nice thread smokie Smiley.
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Artekas Offline
Donator
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Posts: 784


« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 10:06:56 am »

I find it funny how often it is claimed that balanced companies always lose, I am assuming it is because the people who say that always lose with them. I always play a balanced company and I have not had a problem with losing to spam. When I do to lose to spam it's usually because of other things, not the spam itself, like their team having better co-ordination than ours, simply playing better than us, a newb on our side, stuff like that.

Anyways, good thread Smokaz. Interesting to hear about the pool changes in advance.
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11452



« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 10:19:40 am »

Removed those last two posts. Please keep your flamewar out of the strategy forum. This place is serious business.
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8thRifleRegiment Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2224



« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 11:29:21 am »

goo point hants, the PE should have some infantry backed at like a pak of some sorts, but whatever. anyways good thread smokaz.
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Hicks58 Offline
Development
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Posts: 5423



« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 11:31:53 am »

This place is serious business.

If this be serious business, amend your quote of me. :p
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Mgallun74 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1475


« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 12:37:38 pm »

Doesnt OMG have something like this? you have a certian amount of a unit?

so basically, your pool is 10 shermans.. say you lose 5 shermans in 4 games, after that your out of shermans? how do you plan on replacing those? play a certian amount of games before the system gives ya one back etc?
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11452



« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 01:09:53 pm »

Pool doesnt "dissapear". But you wont be able to have 30 rifles, 20 rangers, 15 stormtroopers, 20 pumas, etc. In one game. Over two games you might be able to deploy a total of 20 rangers but doubtfully in one game, with upgrades.

You will possibly be able to do something like this:

Get a lot of unupgraded airborne with grenades. They will end up costing less "supply" than because of the new system with weapon upgrades being a part of deciding the pool cost.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9049


« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 01:27:33 pm »

Essentially, what the system will do is not allow people to get 20 AB Riflemen with BARs, but 20 AB riflemen with grenades will still be allowed.

Does that make things clearer?
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LeoPhone Offline
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Posts: 0


« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 01:31:30 pm »

how does it make sense? so you can still spam stickies but not schrecks?
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lionel23 Offline
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Posts: 1854


« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 01:39:48 pm »

Thumbs down on this, you already pay an arm and a leg for upgrades (180 for SMGs on a 9 pool infantry unit) so why should I be penalized for fielding expensive upgrades? Will flame throwers on engineers make their pool 9 then for how powerful flamers are? And if we add mines then the engineers are more expensive than rangers?

And what about PE/Wehr, Assault grens which have a flamer and 3 MP44s would be over elite infantry then, and shrek squads.. expensive as is for 1, but imagine now that guy with 3 double shrek squads now taking up double the pool in his company.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4874



« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 01:55:21 pm »

Thumbs down on this, you already pay an arm and a leg for upgrades (180 for SMGs on a 9 pool infantry unit) so why should I be penalized for fielding expensive upgrades? Will flame throwers on engineers make their pool 9 then for how powerful flamers are? And if we add mines then the engineers are more expensive than rangers?

And what about PE/Wehr, Assault grens which have a flamer and 3 MP44s would be over elite infantry then, and shrek squads.. expensive as is for 1, but imagine now that guy with 3 double shrek squads now taking up double the pool in his company.

Lionel, they don't care about things. I mean the devs think all thier ideas are amazing, but this one is the most obviously stupid and half assed one.

-assault nades
-incendiary assault

This pretty much just makes the actual spam worse. Great job.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9049


« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 01:58:43 pm »

Why exactly do you assume the developers will be putting down retarded pool costs on the thompson upgraded infantry, and that there will be no pool cost on things like assault grenades?

Am I sensing a slippery slope?
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