[CW] The Firefly vs PE.

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[Hicks58]

Alright, got a curious question here.

Against PE, what niche is the FF supposed to fill? It's 320 Fuel and 12 pop's worth of pure AT.

A Marder III which is in comparison 140 Fuel and 6 pop can completely lock down a FF if the Marder uses the fact that it can match the FF's max range, and it can lock down.

50mm HT's now have the stats of Pak38's, and are speedy enough to take a shot and back off. They come in at 110 Munitions and 50 Fuel... Arguably, still a much cheaper investment than the FF. 5 pop naturally blows the FF's 12 out of the water.

If either of these units are paired up (2 Marders, 2 50mm's, one of each...), and likely will be, they will STILL be a cheaper investment than the Firefly... And be equal or less pop than it.

Now you can argue, the Marder and 50mm HT's are tank hunters, but... Isn't that what the FF is? A supposedly high quality one, to which I'm in doubt of now.

You could also argue, bring support with your FF, but then say a Bren squad for example, would be an extra 90 Munitions and 5 pop. A supporting ATG would be 110 Munitions and 5 pop... Knocking it up to 17 pop of near enough pure AT unless your using the bren squad - Which isn't a guaranteed win against such long ranged platforms, only a deterrent. If you do this, then you have an extra 5-7 pop for the PE player to be using for even more support, potentially negating you even further.

So... That aside, in my opinion, the FF is useless against those two primary PE AT platforms. So what else can it take on? Halftracks? Sure, but a Cromwell or a Staghound will do a much better job, and kill the infantry coming out of it too. Kill IST's? Sure, it could do that... But again, a Cromwell could do that nearly as well, and for a cheaper investment. Take on a Panther?... Ah, there's something it can take on with an excessive amount of micro and attention.

However, once you've successfully taken on said Panther, assuming Marders and 50mm's havent gunned you down in the process... You've now essentially got 12 pop wasted on the field. It's not going to be killing infantry reliably, and it's piss poor reload isn't going to have it hunting down light vehicles at a very fast pace.

So... What can be done for this once proud hunter of tanks?

Hell if I know at the moment, I'll let everybody else throw those ideas into the pan before I get to it.

[Hicks58]

Yeah, pretty sure you didn't even bother to read all that lol.

No, I'm not asking for a WTFUBERBUFF.

I'm asking for the unit to be looked at and reviewed. Something seems sincerely out of whack against PE for the FF. Yes, there are better alternatives... But a unit shouldn't be useless against a faction on the whole.

[smurfORnot]

except that u have 5pop atg gun which beats marder and 50mm  

[Smokaz]

Its supposed to take on:

Scout cars
Armored car
Flakvierlings
Hetzers
Hotchkiss
Jagdpanther
Panther
IST
Scout cars
Wirbelwind

That's pretty much a majority of the PE vehicle/tank arsenal. It can beat all these tanks by range and penetration, against the panther and the jagd it needs support but it outranges them and negate their main strength, namely armor. Jagd isn't easily taken down by anything, so that's a special case.

Marder and 50mm HT is the PE role equivalent of Paks, Pak40s, geschutz and stugs. What this means is that dedicated AT tanks will lose to them, or at the very least not do as well. It would be a problem if a firefly could beat these units, even at it's higher fuel cost. For this type of AT you must use something else.

Infantry halftracks and shreks on foot are something the firefly has to be vary of, because it has little capability against them and they move fast.

[Hicks58]

Its supposed to take on:

Armored car
Flakvierlings
Hetzers
Hotchkiss
Jagdpanther
Panther
IST
Scout cars
Wirbelwind

That's pretty much a majority of the PE arsenal. It can beat all these tanks by range and penetration, against the panther and the jagd it needs support but it outranges them and negate their main strength, namely armor. Jagd isn't easily taken down by anything, so that's a special case.

Marder and 50mm HT is the PE role equivalent of Paks, Pak40s, geschutz and stugs. What this means is that dedicated AT tanks will lose to them, or at the very least not do as well. It would be a problem if a firefly could beat these units, even at it's higher fuel cost.

Good luck hitting the AC...
Flakvierlings could be pulled apart by a Staghound.
Hetzers I can get behind.
Hotchkiss... Just use a Cromwell.
JagdPanther I can get behind that too.
Panther I already mentioned.
IST, again, Cromwell would do just as decent a job.
Scout car... Again, good luck hitting the bastard while it's on the move.
Wirbelwind... Same deal as the Flakvierlings.

Your right, it COULD take on all of those targets. But apart from a single non doctrine and two doctrine specific, there are much better alternatives.

A single Pak will fail against an M10, a dedicated AT piece. Two Paks... Will tear it to ribbons placed correctly. Shouldn't the same thing apply for such an expensive dedicated AT tank?

Thanks for the constructive reply btw.

[smurfORnot]

then just use atg's...

[Hicks58]

then just use atg's...

No shit sherlock.

I'm discussing a unit being pants against a faction, I'm aware of the alternatives to using the unit in question.

[smurfORnot]

but,there is also other faction ,WH ,or is it also underperforming against them?

[Hicks58]

No, It's actually fine against WM, which is why I haven't mentioned them.

Nice attempt to make me look biased though. Keep trying.

Or rather, try again tomorrow, for I'm off to bed. Night.

[smurfORnot]

but,if it is just fine against WH,and then you improve/buff it,wouldnt it be then kinda OP against WH?

[Killer344]

sigh, you can buff it specifically against against PE only, by adding modifiers vs the units you want.

[smurfORnot]

ok,so buff it in which way?

[BigDick]

some AT gun creeping or boys AT/piat/stag/stuart is all u need against PE

i think you are to much accustomed to exploit your 2 shooting any PE stuff OP pershing

there is absolutely no reason why you want to kill an AT gun using an AT-tank

you can use them against Panthers and P4 ISTs
and when playing e.g. a infantry company all marders and AT HTs are complete useless

buff them vs infantry?

that pe got only crappy vehicles which can be penetrated by everything does not mean that the all heeavy armor penetrating firefly need to oneshoting them

[lionel23]

Not to rain down on your parade hicks, but why does the FF need to be looked at against PE?

The firefly is a long range medium/heavy tank killer.  Great against doctrine tanks, panthers or just to outrange and rape medium tanks. It's not designed to kill ATGs... I mean they are anti-tank guns and it is... well.. a tank.

Now useless against inf? It can still occassionally hit a man, and in a game when the enemy has nothing but say vanilla infantry, the firefly can squish or push troops around in order to assist allied infantry if they are woefully outnumbered.

It's also like saying the US mortar is worthless against PE because the PE support unit is a vehicle while its wehr counterpart is a manned weapon... so let's give US Mortars an AP round to destroy vehicles too! Some units are excellent against one faction (ie rangers w/ bazookas against PE) and others that are sucky against others (flame engineers against PE clowncars).

If you don't want the firefly, take a cromwell, there's is armor that is good against everything but doesn't excel in any category (and if the argument that it doesn't do as good a job vrs inf like the stag or good against tanks like the firefly is suppose to fly, well it's a tradeoff).

Flyfly - Extreme unit vrs tanks
Cromwell - Average against all
Staghound - Strong against inf, weak vrs tanks

It's all based around their unit design.  Cross-factional balancing is different in that PE plays much differently than Wehr. Really the firefly is not a unit the devs (I think) need to be wasting time balancing when they got the warmap, the other doctrines, and new features and maps they want to release. And you are given a choice in what to build in your company.  No one is saying you have to take a firefly, so if you're playing against PE a lot, then don't take it; just like how I never take ATGs in my axis and allied companies and rely on taking it from the enemy with my infantry hoardes and it is more effective for me than bringing my own guns onto the field, it's my choce and how I can make my company work with my playstyle and company composition.

[Tymathee]

also ff has turret, marders and 50's dont, so you can sneak in pop a shot off with ur high damage FF and make' em back off, i do this all the time.

personally i think the price or pop of marders and 50mms need to be looked at cuz now they seem to be the default to any PE company, especially marders, when no one used to use them.

also would like to have the sliding exploit fixed if possible, i'm tired of my tanks being ran down by marders that get locked down and still move thus allowing them to bypass terrain that would normally slow them down among other things. yOu dont even see pe panthers anymore.

[Malgoroth]

You see so many marders because the only two doctrines the PE has atm are real muni heavy and anti-infantry based. Luft and SE (especially flammen SE) eat up munitions for FG42s, riflenades, flame assault nades, flame assault grens, etc... no munis are left over for many shrecks. How do they solve this AT crisis? Marders. Panther is too expensive. Placing all those resources into one AT unit isn't as economical as purchasing several of a lesser AT unit instead.

Marders aren't hard to kill. Their pop and cost are fine.

Oh yeah, and with 2 ists and 4 marders, im over the armor supply by 6. I'm sure that's relevant somehow.

[spinn72]

BUFFS for the Firefly? You're crazy!

If you're facing 2/3 PE players, put the FF in your holding zone and get bren carrier mmg's with armour piercing and button or something.

Good luck hitting the AC...
Flakvierlings could be pulled apart by a Staghound.
Hetzers I can get behind.
Hotchkiss... Just use a Cromwell.
JagdPanther I can get behind that too.
Panther I already mentioned.
IST, again, Cromwell would do just as decent a job.
Scout car... Again, good luck hitting the bastard while it's on the move.
Wirbelwind... Same deal as the Flakvierlings.

Your right, it COULD take on all of those targets. But apart from a single non doctrine and two doctrine specific, there are much better alternatives.

A single Pak will fail against an M10, a dedicated AT piece. Two Paks... Will tear it to ribbons placed correctly. Shouldn't the same thing apply for such an expensive dedicated AT tank?

Thanks for the constructive reply btw.

Then why do you even have a Firefly?!

[Spartan_Marine88]

just to comment

getting behind a hetzer is great in theory, but they are fast bitches and you have to know they are there (hetz cloak)

Jagdpanther Honestly hicks, i don't know who you are playing agains't but unless they are a moron you aren't getting behind that if it has even one unit supporting that.

IST will shred your infantry long before that cromwell is gonna hurt it.

[NightRain]

also ff has turret, marders and 50's dont, so you can sneak in pop a shot off with ur high damage FF and make' em back off, i do this all the time.

personally i think the price or pop of marders and 50mms need to be looked at cuz now they seem to be the default to any PE company, especially marders, when no one used to use them.

also would like to have the sliding exploit fixed if possible, i'm tired of my tanks being ran down by marders that get locked down and still move thus allowing them to bypass terrain that would normally slow them down among other things. yOu dont even see pe panthers anymore.

It is the current metagame man. Allies spam Pershings so Axis spams heavy AT counters to it.

[smurfORnot]

also would like to have the sliding exploit fixed if possible, i'm tired of my tanks being ran down by marders that get locked down and still move thus allowing them to bypass terrain that would normally slow them down among other things. yOu dont even see pe panthers anymore.

man,this is bug that cant be fixed...only way to fix it is to make marder have to be perfectly still in order to shoot,which is ficking hard in practice,since,the moment he stops he will start to rotate to fire at something...it was done,and made marders 2x worse than they are now.

and bug that allows them to move while locked down is more disadvantage than advantage,it hapens every now and then to me,and u have locked down marder that just moves forward(sometimes you can control him,but he will still mvoe forward,you will just make him turn) and CAN'T stop...so that means dead marder...I would wish to see how would you like to have shermans that just move right into enemy at even you tell em to stop.

You see so many marders because the only two doctrines the PE has atm are real muni heavy and anti-infantry based. Luft and SE (especially flammen SE) eat up munitions for FG42s, riflenades, flame assault nades, flame assault grens, etc... no munis are left over for many shrecks. How do they solve this AT crisis? Marders. Panther is too expensive. Placing all those resources into one AT unit isn't as economical as purchasing several of a lesser AT unit instead.

exactly! and face it,schreck aint THAT good,I would rather have 2 at guns,than 3 schreck pzgrens...


marders are ok-aish,even they can be so stupid,because compared to panther they are expandable,with panther you have to be rly good to make him worth his cost,because I see so many fail panthers,and when you fail with panther,it hurts you and your team quite a bit...