[PE] PzGren Changes

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[Nevyen]

As a cumulative factor with the meta game and other game variables it probably does.

[cloud234]

Ultimately, I think Shockcoil and Panda would've done better that game if they hadnt LoLcharged every vehicle/sherman with their AT grenade Pgrens and properly supported them with an earlier jadg or panthers. They exhausted themselves too quickly instead of playing smart. City side of Neunen didnt see any action all game. It was all muscle.

Well, we were putting a lot of pressure on them. Their strategy of charging with AT Grenades was good actually. Without that, I would be happily massacring all their PzGrens with my tanks.

Tbh, were the PE changes not in effect, then this could've gone very wrong for you cloud. But what I saw was that when Pgrens played in cover, rifles died. When rifles played in cover, Pgrens died and the unit exchanged dmg at a more acceptable rate, and BARs became useful instead of the least cost effective option rifles have vs. PE.

I would say, I played the way I did because I knew the effects of the changes. While rifles received an improvement in performance against PzGrens, the improvement are not significant enough for them to instantly steamroll PzGrens... though the improvement in BAR capability is... shocking at the very minimum.

Useful is an understatement. I'll never go to battle without BARs now because they effectively shuts down the PE inf completely.

[Firesparks]

Interestingly, the only difference between Grenadiers and PzGrens is the suppression recovery rate of 0.008 and 0.007 on COH Stats. Does this make a world of difference? Perhaps?

http://picly.us/coh/basics/suppression.html

and the PG are a bit harder to pin.

[Tymathee]

so, bars can finally kill pzgrens like they kill volks and grens, sounds good to me.

[Tymathee]

MG rip pg to pieces now...

which is how it should be. pz shouldn't be on par with elite infantry in automatic weapon avoidable, they're base infantry.

i dont think flammens were changed tho and they shouldn't. keep their hp at 55 and soldier armor.

[NightRain]

Very well, their suppression recovery could be buffed to match Grenadiers even if it isn't much :p

Flammengrenadiers still have Airborne Armor it has been stated so many times before Tym.

In all honesty. The worst part is 3x Bared Riflemen from tier 3. Gotta say, they tear every Pzgren squad to shreds. Adapting to the BAR army is forceful thing but using fuel on AI as PE is...not exactly reliable because of a certain thing that goes by name 57mm Anti Tank Gun. In all effectiveness fuel based units are in danger when this is on the field. So saying that PE has to rely on vehicle based Anti infantry because their Infantry Anti infantry sucks is quite bad. ACs get two shotted and so do halftracks. Hell Scout Cars get RAPED by bars.

Relying on AC sniping at them at long range seems to be only thing. Gotta try it out once to see how well they perform as 'snipers'. I'd use LATHTs but they perform better as a support unit to a marder because of their fragile nature toward BARs (Their armor is still the same which means 2x BAR squads will rape it)

[cloud234]

In all honesty. The worst part is 3x Bared Riflemen from tier 3. Gotta say, they tear every Pzgren squad to shreds. Adapting to the BAR army is forceful thing but using fuel on AI as PE is...not exactly reliable because of a certain thing that goes by name 57mm Anti Tank Gun.

Weighted average effectiveness: 21.21%*0.5 + 104.55*0.5 =62.88%

Thats. BIG IMPROVEMENT!!!

[Unkn0wn]

Percantages don't give the full picture, sure, they're considerably worse against BAR riflemen when compared with their old state, but they're only as 'bad' versus BAR riflemen as your average WM grenadier squad. Which I don't think anyone here will argue die like flies versus BAR riflemen...

They were ridiculously resistant to BAR riflemen in their old state, some would even argue they were too resistant. So considering their old state, that 63% makes things look a lot worse than in reality it turns out to be. The old PE  armour is really a vCOH mechanic that was carried over, even though there was no justification to. They don't need to be considerably more resistant versus BARs in EIR, like they need to be in VCOH.

The only big problem possibly is that their damage output does not allow them to compete with BAR riflemen like grenadiers can, and that may be the core issue here. (And yes, you could definitely also argue that the terrible DPS is a vCOH mechanic we don't need to keep intact)

[BigDick]

but the difference is that grens can get medkits that make them able to take more damage and most important they can shoot back what pgrens not really can with their crap rifles


the idea to change it to infantry armor wasn't a bad one but only for tankbusters because to spend 120mun for an at unit that gets 1-2 shotted by most tanks is just bullshit

[Unkn0wn]

Grenadiers without medkits do fine just as well, but like you pointed out, it's the DPS difference that really makes the PZgrens look pale in comparison. (About 40% worse than WM grenadiers)

[brn4meplz]

G43's can help close the gap, but at 2 G43's per upgrade it's not quite the same.

[NightRain]

G43's can help close the gap, but at 2 G43's per upgrade it's not quite the same.

So...when buying G43s only 2 guys get them?

[cloud234]

So...when buying G43s only 2 guys get them?

Yes. It would be awesome if all 4 guys got it. Zoom in and view it.

[NightRain]

Yes. It would be awesome if all 4 guys got it. Zoom in and view it.

teh fu. No wonder they seem crappy. Ontop of it 60 mun! \o/

[nugnugx]

meh i told ages ago that g43 needs a buff

[Tymathee]

omg...all guns get 2 per upgrade except the lmg.

bars = 2
lmg = 1
bren = 2
g43 = 2

only diff are the smgs which equip the whole squad, why would the g43 be any different?

[LeoPhone]

coz g43 is weaker than bars and brens?

but price change should be enough if its weak. no 4 g43 pgren blobs plz.

[AmPM]

Ya Tym, because 2 G43's make the squad about 80% as shooty as a Gren squad. Whereas 2 BAR's nearly DOUBLES the Rifle squads firepower.

[cloud234]

Percantages don't give the full picture, sure, they're considerably worse against BAR riflemen when compared with their old state, but they're only as 'bad' versus BAR riflemen as your average WM grenadier squad. Which I don't think anyone here will argue die like flies versus BAR riflemen...

They were ridiculously resistant to BAR riflemen in their old state, some would even argue they were too resistant. So considering their old state, that 63% makes things look a lot worse than in reality it turns out to be. The old PE  armour is really a vCOH mechanic that was carried over, even though there was no justification to. They don't need to be considerably more resistant versus BARs in EIR, like they need to be in VCOH.

The only big problem possibly is that their damage output does not allow them to compete with BAR riflemen like grenadiers can, and that may be the core issue here. (And yes, you could definitely also argue that the terrible DPS is a vCOH mechanic we don't need to keep intact)

I think you do not appreciate the significance of percentages.

Essentially in a hypothetical scenario...

Lets assume it takes 60 seconds to kill PzGrens. The math is HP / DPS = Time.

A 60% improvement would mean it will be PreviousTime / Improvement = New Time... 60 / 1.6 = 37.5.

Are you saying it doesn't show the "whole picture"?

[Unkn0wn]

No, I'm saying some people here have the perception that they're now absolutely terrible, when my point is that they're only as 'terrible' as your average WM grenadier... Yes, they were significantly stronger in certain departments before this change, but their high pre-nerf resistance versus BARs for example is a vCOH mechanic that is irrelevant in EIR gameplay.