[US] M18 Hellcat

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[AmPM]

Down to 8 pop.

Lacks punch vs anything besides light vehicles, does not suppress. Should be priced/pop equivalent of a STuG (STuG has no turret, less range; M18 doesn't penetrate well, has more range and turret, but weaker armor).

M10 is fine.

[Tymathee]

8 may be a bit much maybe 9.

[pqumsieh]

i think the m18 is also getting other buffs, so lets wait and see before we make other changes...

PQ

[BigDick]

Lacks punch vs anything besides light vehicles,

and thats the problem

it rapes a whole faction (PE) even Hetzer (because it got a weird penetration modifier of 100% vs hetz armor)

even in its current pricing/pop it is pain in the ass vs PE

[AmPM]

and thats the problem

it rapes a whole faction (PE) even Hetzer (because it got a weird penetration modifier of 100% vs hetz armor)

even in its current pricing/pop it is pain in the ass vs PE

TBH, I would prefer they normalize it's gun to the M10's 3", then just raise the price a bit.

[EliteGren]

That's stupid

[Tymathee]

meh, leave it be,

[AmPM]

Why is it stupid? It's gun currently does jack vs Wehr, but destroys PE. It's price is built to reflect that but makes it either super awesome vs PE due to low cost, or still useless vs Wehr.

If the gun was in line with other weapons then you could price it correctly.

[BigDick]

M10s destroy PE too (even hetzers same weird modifier)

[Hicks58]

It should be noted that even with the 100% penetration rate, your chances of penetrating a Hetzer from max range arent promising, as the Hellcat has natural penetration modifiers of thus:

Short range - 0.65
Medium range - 0.55
Long range - 0.4

So yeah, even if you drive up point blank, you've still got only a 65% chance to penetrate the front of a Hetzer. God forbid you engage anything else.

Here's an M10 for comparison:

Short range - 1
Medium range - 0.92
Long range - 0.84

M10 has the same target table as the Hellcat, so the M10 is gonna leave a hell of a nasty mark on any Hetzers. It will also have a hope in hell of penetrating something else too.

[RikiRude]

i have found no use of hellcats in any of my companies. im curious to see the buffs it gets though!

[BigDick]

It should be noted that even with the 100% penetration rate, your chances of penetrating a Hetzer from max range arent promising, as the Hellcat has natural penetration modifiers of thus:

Short range - 0.65
Medium range - 0.55
Long range - 0.4

i think we all know that and so we all know that this is still 2-3 times of the penetration you can achieve with an ATG without AP rounds

add in the ambush and the Hetzer loose more than 1/3 health after a single hit that basically always penetrates (200% ambush penetration)

the hetzer is a tank with a shit gun no turret low hp that lives from its armor but according to Hellcats and M10 that isn't the case because of these weird modifiers

[AmPM]

i think we all know that and so we all know that this is still 2-3 times of the penetration you can achieve with an ATG without AP rounds

add in the ambush and the Hetzer loose more than 1/3 health after a single hit that basically always penetrates (200% ambush penetration)

the hetzer is a tank with a shit gun no turret low hp that lives from its armor but according to Hellcats and M10 that isn't the case because of these weird modifiers

God forbid a tank destroyer can counter a dual purpose Hetzer =)

[Hicks58]

An ATG without AP rounds finds it hard to penetrate, however it has that lovely 50% deflection modifier, making it still do a solid 75 damage on a bounce. The Hellcat does 112.5 damage, and has a 20% deflection modifier, meaning after your first "Awesome" shot, your buggered if your going to do anything else at long range.

Meanwhile, the only tank the Hetzer does NOT do below 50% penetration against, is Pershing armour. I'd hardly call that a shit gun tbh. The lack of a turret is as disadvantageous as the player wants it to be. Also, the Hetzer has only M10's, Pershings, and ambushing Hellcats to fear. The Hellcat can be wrecked by typically any armour that lands a hit on it.

Oh, and this dwelves into ol' theory-crafting land, but really, who runs ATG's without AP rounds?

[Tymathee]

the only things the hellcat has over the m-10 are

1. Extra Damage when you ambush but same pen
2.  .50 cal (although its kinda meh cuz it's a tank destroyer)
3. Hawkins mine
4. 46 sight (all other tanks 35)

otherwise, why get it?

ONe thing i do love doing with it is cuz of its 46 sight, using it as a kind of scout and kiting at tanks and vehicles that can't see me back, pair an m-18 with a atg, or other AT and it does really well.

[AmPM]

The .50 and Hawkins do not make it dual purpose, the M10 is far more dual purpose because it runs mans over easier.

[Tymathee]

i never used the word dual purpose

[BigDick]

Meanwhile, the only tank the Hetzer does NOT do below 50% penetration against, is Pershing armour. I'd hardly call that a shit gun tbh. The lack of a turret is as disadvantageous as the player wants it to be. Also, the Hetzer has only M10's, Pershings, and ambushing Hellcats to fear. The Hellcat can be wrecked by typically any armour that lands a hit on it

You ever used Hetzers by yourself? doesn't sound like

[AmPM]

i never used the word dual purpose

Malgoroth, like I said, I played a game against G-wagon spam and it was only 8 pop, if they were 6, you'd see a lot of dual g-wagon, tri g-wagon, even 4 g-wagon games. Yes it's slow but if you have 3 or 4 of them coming down on you, it doesn't matter if the radius is slow.

and also like I stated, if it didn't have the hmg, i'd wholly agree, much like I said if the m-18 didn't have the 50 cal and hawk upgrades i'd be cool with it being 8 pop since it penetrates tanks so poorly but because it's not a singular pupose unit that doesn't do that single purpose well but has upgrades that do others, then no, you don't change the pop. Price, yes, pop no.

From the GWagon thread, you state that the upgrades make it multi purpose.

[Hicks58]

I've not used Hetzers myself. However, I've used Stugs and I've used them quite a bit.

I find Stugs to be fine, and against armour, they roll out more or less the same in combat performance. However, this isn't a thread about Hetzers. This is a thread about M18's. If you want to profess how much Hetzers suck, feel free to go make a thread before derailing this one. I've said my piece about Hellcat performance against Hetzers and I'll go no further.

Back to the Hellcat, I wouldn't be against a pop decrease considering it's mediocre effectiveness as an AT piece apart from against one unit at point blank. It's really a support unit for other AT pieces, and at 10 pop, it can be a bit of a hog.