Wait for it to be 100% implemented before we act so certain of it being so bad.
*waits*
*Starts speculation*
What people don't seem to mention in this or other threads related to the change with weapons cache...
Is that its all intended to be
equally prohibitive for all builds and reduce spam. However, You're still able to buy alot of one type of upgrade (isnt that spam?), but the max roof for your spam has been lowered. All players supposedly are equally affected. That means the weapon cache addition is inherently a neutral BALANCE change for the INDIVIDUAL PLAYER, cause no doctrine or faction is being singled out and punished.. Okay, good so far.
Or is it really? On top of it might ending up being a "DESIGN CHOICE" which people disagree with, a underlying problem here is that we have a layer of company "effectiveness economy" which isn't assigned prices, namely the top doctrine unlocks. As long as they value of this is completely circumstancial and without a price tag, good values cannot be assigned to the rest of the prices. The only reason why the values aren't completely retarded is because at one point EIR didn't have working doctrines - it just had units and vet. A simple and great environment for assigning prices to sets of units. Back then good prices were assigned, and the unit selection hasn't been massively changed since the day they were well assigned. But, then came doctrines...
Oh shit..
Weapons cache is going in gradually with prices being assigned to upgrades from patch to patch. However, this isn't magically changing any balance or making it easier to do. EIRR devs will still have to ponder whether or not a bar upgrade should be 3 weapons cache points or 4. This will lead to people saying stuff like: "Why can I only get 8 fg42s for X points when dude z can get y bars for X points."
Assuming that values for high pool cost units through the change to one a pool cost and one weapon cache cost make units like FSJ, AB, Rangers, Commandos possible to replace basic infantry you can run themed companies like AB or Commmandos only. Spam?
Hower this is reliant on the pool cost being very cheap. Spam. Some People like, others dislike. From a overview post-weapon cache EIRR still gives you some possibilities to choose doctrine builds which buff all the units you use for a doctrine given "economic" advantage. Which is a problem continuing to exist and which is also the M A I N motivation for "SPAM": a advantage over other players. Spam is being targeted I guess, albeit ineffectively and building on a flawed system.
If there's a doctrine build which allows units to perform great without weapons cache limiting them, people will choose that. It's a advantage just sitting there waiting for you to grab it. And guess what these companies look like? Spammy.
More values are added into a flawed system with no objective measure. For example: whether or not AB are worth 300 when you can not get upgrades on 100% of them and with different doctrine abilities affecting them is completely unanswerable at this point. Gameplaywise, Adaptive People will then run less amounts of overpriced upgrades but discussion ensues: More workload, complaining and imbalances. And no CLEAR ANSWER.
Because you cannot PRICE AB depending on which T4 you have with this system.A unupgraded AB squad MIGHT be worth 300 MP with T4 A, but not with T3 B or Unlock C. So the price will still be WRONG for a AB squad in the majority of the circumstances you CAN BUY it.
And then the dawning realization hits us: Weapons cache is a forced change to reduce upgrades overall. It reduces possible builds. But it messes up balance MORE than what we had previously, because now we realize that that for certain doctrine builds a BAR upgrade is not WORTH 3 cache points, while for ANOTHER they actually are. It also introduces a relationship between the pool price of the unit and the weapons cache, adding another huge amount of work and balancing.
Pure speculation? I beg to differ.
Here's some obvious doctrine mishaps that now will show up:
- Infantry doctrine gets raped in the ass. The most important / problem creating buffs in infantry doctrine is related to upgraded weapons for their base infantry or elite infantry. Zooks, bars.
Side note:(Inept balance team who didn't see it coming realizes, re-adds carabines which is a similar non-upgrade buff)- Blitzkrieg becomes massively powerful, with their elite armor T4 not requiring any weapons cache. A lot of weapon cache upgrades like bundles and grenades are great, cheap and buffed as well by the doctrine.
- Top T4 for luftwaffe becomes massively powerful as it requires no upgrades
- Top T4 for commandos is likewise improved, but its not a 100% infantry focused buff so its less of a deal
- etc etc etc. Different balance "policies" have to be applied to everything. Structure is lost, grounds for comparison between how something is balanced is reduced. Players get even less insight in how something actually is balanced.
Problemo, polizei?
TOO LONG DIDN'T READ AKA CONCLUSIONS- New balance problems arise with this change
- Spam survives pretty well in spite of being the target of the change
- Doctrine spam economic advantages largely stay, A flawed system is built further on
- Massive workload increase, meager benefit, more doctrine reworks required
Subjectively appreciatable/hatable changes.
- Depending on price, all "elite inf" companies are back
- But because of price not being possible to "do right", with current doctrines some of them will be so much better
- Less infantry upgrades overall: more basic inf *possible*, but with poor doctrine balance hanging over them
Solution:
Stop pissing around the christmas tree. Price everything like bottom doctrine unlocks are. Equally much work, but actually a permanent solution that is clear-cut to balance. The difference in builds is removed as a balance problem. Spam is priced correctly, combined arms is priced correctly. You get what you pay for. Stuff has a objective measure of worth. And even this system ain't perfect, its just the best solution at this point. The weakness of this solution is singular as far as I can see: the work required to assign prices to everything but that is true for all EIRR patching progression that it's a lot of work.
The big plus: Equal resources + Good pricing (because of a good system for price to be based on) = Great balance between company builds
Another thing that I sadly think could happen now if the devs realize the new problems is that because of all the new variables and the inherent problem with the additional weapon cache system not being combinable with "free" doctrine buffs is that it gets watered out by too low values, just like the old oversupply got watered out by PPs being available in excess rendering it a change that doesn't really introduce new decisions for the players.
Hopefully this will get addressed in some form, but I am a firm believer in that adding prices for the top doctrine unlocks will massively improve the development of this mod.
