Weapons Cache explained

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[Tymathee]

Lot of stuff said today, I wont even attempt to read it all just input my thoughts.

I think the Cache system is a good system, especially after reading the write up, I understand it alot more

However, I do feel the frustration because I feel it penalizes munitions heavy companies, kinda like my infantry. I found I had 285 left over munitions and that latter part usually goes toward repairs and mines.

So my proposal is this. Weapons cache needs to be specialized to WEAPONS and not all upgrades, repairs, mines, kits etc. It should only go to things that can kill like .50 cal upgrades, BARS, grenades, stickies (i guess mines can be included but it should be 1 for 1 imo) and not include things like support weapons and repairs and other upgrades. Or if you do, they should be so low (1) that it doesn't really matter but does count.

Some stuff is just too high or unbalanced (8 WC for Dual Schreck and RR upgrade. just seems off) and i know it's new and needs tweaking.

Here is one thing I would love from the dev team though is a complete list if possible of all the upgrades and weapons that use the cache (or even if they don't just to see if they need to) this way we can see a full physical put down of everything and balance it out that way. I just feel it would be better and lead to a lot more constructive talk.

[smurfORnot]

panzerfaust - panzerfausts are simply too good for 30mu. 100% accuracy and high damage.

cant be 100% accuracy because I had them hit the ground instead of tank/LV not once.

[PonySlaystation]

Why the weapons cache is designed to address every upgrade and why people are pissed about it :

It doesn't work like that, your logic is completely flawed. If a player has to choose between getting Assault or PzShreck instead of getting both wouldn't that mean less variety, more spam and damage the companies with different upgrades?

Why not just limit assault if assault is the problem and not fuck up the rest?

[PonySlaystation]

You could probably balance everything by just changing the prices. The problem is that there hasn't been any success with balancing unit prices because instead of doing small progressive price changes it just gets nerfed to complete uselessnesss.

Faust was overpowered at 30 munitions and you just went: fuck this ability, it's going up 1000% in cost.

[Hicks58]

cant be 100% accuracy because I had them hit the ground instead of tank/LV not once.

The Faust has an accuracy of 2 at all ranges and an accuracy modifier of 1 against pretty much all targets (Sherman or M10 has something like 0.93, but not enough to make a difference).

Essentially, the target would need an incoming accuracy modifier of less than 0.5 for the Faust to miss it. Which means what you've seen is some weird shit, or you've got bad memory.

Bouncing can happen from time to time though against Pershings.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

I once saw a Faust collide with a house, was loltastic

[tank130]

The current balance team is the most productive and team oriented group we have ever had. Working under the same SDT and policies & procedures as the past.

The large number of balance issues they have been working on have been sent for coding and will appear in the next patch.

The SDT is the same, the Policies & procedures are the same, but we are getting more positive results and team work then we ever had in the past. It is very clear that having the right people on the team is what makes it productive.

For those of you blaming the management for a bad experience while on the balance team: you appear to be pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

[Jstek]

The WC, i think is overkill.  The problem issues can be worked out with the current upgrade prices.
And if you have a problem upgrade that you want to have cost a small amount but not be overly used, why not first price it properly at the base level and if needed apply a diminishing returns value to it if you need to control spam but not limit it's entry into the company.  

It was quoted that the 'The weapons cache being a hidden munitions tax'.  Why make it a hidden tax when you can just make it overt.  Diminishing returns can be used to balance units.  I don't propose every unit, but apply it to the problem ones.  The great thing is does not have to be limited to just upgrades.  it has much more flexibility and makes could be a very cost effective unit which doctrine selections not be as cost effective if you want to have a large quantity of them.  Its a better tool that uses the existing system.

On top of that, I would only suggest using it on problem upgrades or units as a last resort.
The honest truth of the matter is all the problem build's (SPAM) that has been cited in the various posts have very real solutions that I feel would work out better.  Too many goliaths??  Increase the pop of Pios; cant believe pios are only 3 pop!  WTF!  Assault nades a problem?; Don't want to change the platform is available on?  Increase the MU and MP requirements for the upgrade.  Increase pool size you needed.  Several suggestions have been put out that makes sense.  Scout cars or armored cars a problem?  Make them not cost 3 POP!  Or use diminishing returns if you want to keep the low pop value.

I don't know if WC is really working, but i have seen a drop in games, since it was opened.  I think time would be better spend on just using existing features to fix the problems instead of creating new features to create new problems to fix other problems that it doesn't fix but creates new problems; then you have to create a new feature to fix those new problems, which in turns creates other problems, that have too.. un-ending system.

Several balance patches before the WC have really seemed to have balanced the game much better.  Most noteably the removal of oversupply.  Now, why not remove smufs and things will be really good instead of creating a WC system.  I know it took time to code, perhaps it can be used in another way, perhaps in regulating reward units if you wanted too..  Kinda makes better sense in that regard.

[Firesparks]

people who played with me know that I used a balance company, but I don't hate people who specialize their company.

I like seeing the all different combination of units creative player make up. In between 4 factions, 3 different doctrines per faction, and 3 different paths per doctrine there should be endless combination and possibilities.

One of the most memorable for me was wind's ostwind and schreck company. I would have never thought of the combo myself but in the end it's still one of the most fun company to play against.

There were some cheesy and overpowered company building, like the old US armor HE round ability, the 17 pounder emplacement, or the US and wehr rambo officer spam. When those appear I just balance them in the game without trying to put a hard limit on everything. all weapon cache does is severely discourage experimentation and make the game stagnant because you're forcing everyone to have the same company set up.
 
the weapon cache shouldn't even be necessary if the game was balance in the first place, now you're just adding another unnecessary complexity to the game, drawing resources and attention to actually balancing the game.

When I was the lone coder on the mod. I make alot of unilateral decision on my own. I stand by my decision for good or ill and I fix the mistakes I've made. Now when some body make a mistake on design or balance error everyone just blame it on the "SDT" and "BT" that people are involved in but apparently no one is responsible to.

[tank130]

Now when some body make a mistake on design or balance error everyone just blame it on the "SDT" and "BT" that people are involved in but apparently no one is responsible to.

LOL............

They blame it on the BT or SDT because they are the people who make the final decision. Who do you want them to blame it on....the dog?

Don't bullshit people Firesparks. You have never taken any responsibility for your errors. In the community forums or the Dev forums.

[Firesparks]

LOL............

They blame it on the BT or SDT because they are the people who make the final decision. Who do you want them to blame it on....the dog?

Don't bullshit people Firesparks. You have never taken any responsibility for your errors. In the community forums or the Dev forums.

when I accidentally cause the 50 range hotchkiss stuka main gun bug I was the one to put out a hot patch. When the flame sapper first appear along side the kangaroo I was the one who removed the kangaroo. Talk is cheap, and there have been alot of talk lately about how WC will fix things. Being the one working the .rgd and SQL it's obvious I was the one messing up and the one who work to fix it. 

I know who was on the sdt and the bt. When the soldier armor change to the PG happen I know whose idea it was first. when the community blew over that person hide behind the BT and SDT. Everyone involved was guilty because all of us (including me) voted on it and let it pass. All of us just hide behind the "SDT" and "BT"

[Unkn0wn]

Can you both kindly leave your personal vendettas the fuck out of this?

This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

[tank130]

Fixed....me, me, me ,me

There is no "I" in the word team Firesparks. That is why you are not on it.

If something goes wrong in this mod, it is the teams fault, not any particular individual. The only way one person can be solely responsible is if they have SQL or RGD access and making unauthorized changes.
That person is then removed from the team because they are not capable of acting in a responsible matter.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

You're right, there is no "I" in team, so when the entire development team screws up on the Weapons Cache, it makes idiots out of all of you for not properly considering factors such as:

A) Community reaction and feedback

B) Possible future impact

C) Complexity factor

D) Misrepresentation of upgrades

So you're right, it's not just one guy acting like an idiot. It's evidently a whole bunch of people acting like idiots.

[tank130]

You're right, there is no "I" in team, so when the entire development team screws up on the Weapons Cache, it makes idiots out of all of you for not properly considering factors such as:

A) Community reaction and feedback

B) Possible future impact

C) Complexity factor

D) Misrepresentation of upgrades

So you're right, it's not just one guy acting like an idiot. It's evidently a whole bunch of people acting like idiots.

Yup, now you are catching on.....
Good thing we are still in Beta phase or we would be fucked. 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Well a few more major issues like the Weapons Cache and the game might make it out of the beta phase, if at all, with less of a playerbase than before. I'd think such a strong reaction to the Weapons Cache would at least provide a not-so-subtle hint that there is an inherent and large flaw in the Weapons Cache somewhere, prompting a temporary removal for internal testing or something.

[puddin]

WC isn;t so bad, it just limits Big company builds. 

Build your company with it in mind, A bigger company will have less spam tactics to fall back on.  While a smaller company will require much more micro, but won;t be limited by WC. 

So either get better with less units, Or adjust the big army.

[Spartan_Marine88]

WC isn;t so bad, it just limits Big company builds. 

Build your company with it in mind, A bigger company will have less spam tactics to fall back on.  While a smaller company will require much more micro, but won;t be limited by WC. 

So either get better with less units, Or adjust the big army.

What are you even talking about? Considering i made my largest army yet this doesn't make a hint of sense. On top of that it has 0 effect on pop so you are running the same size callins which mean the EXACT same micro.

[Firesparks]

I was doing the rgd. the SQL, the patch upload, and the announcement. I did it because I was tired of waiting for someone else to do them. People come to me with problem in the game I personally ensure that it will be fix.

Right now the team is unresponsive and unsympathetic to the people here. The team is a bull minded "entity" that just seems to chuck along without a care.

How long have the flame sapper been sitting at 279mp 100 mu? It's a simple fix but no one bother to do it.

Maybe some of us don't care if it's one person or a team as long as their concern are being addressed. I don't know why do you keep holding this team ideal.

[Smokaz]

WC isn;t so bad, it just limits Big company builds.  

Build your company with it in mind, A bigger company will have less spam tactics to fall back on.  While a smaller company will require much more micro, but won;t be limited by WC.  

So either get better with less units, Or adjust the big army.

Puddin, I noticed you posted early on how it was not affecting your companies. But how correct was that? Are you a fan of this system as well?

Additionally, do you think your type of specialization goes against the EIRR ideal? Do your kinds of builds really require to be limited?