[wher] Tanks

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[RikiRude]

Neat chart, should be its own thread and stickied somewhere.

i feel both tanks are balanced, you should know that if you have a p4, and you see a upgunned sherman that you need to bring support. it's that simple, i wont bring my 75mm sherman when i see a p4 unless i have support.

[Smokaz]

Making powerpoint presentations of EIRR balance = Heroic

Refuting them = Tragic Tryhard

I dont bring a 75mm at all, because even if the gun is good AI and DECENT AT the platform is just suicide vs the heavy buffed axis AT

Go kite defensive shreks or tank hunter marder with your 75mm LOL

[nikomas]

So the P4 can penetrate a pershing... I'm still going to ask this...
WHAT THE FUCK IS A P4 DOING ENGAGING A PERSHING?
Wait a sec... WHY IS A SHERMAN FIGHTING HEAVY ARMOR?

Just cause you can does not mean its a good idea 

(Still, nice charts both of ya... make more! )

[RikiRude]

Making powerpoint presentations of EIRR balance = Heroic

Refuting them = Tragic Tryhard

I dont bring a 75mm at all, because even if the gun is good AI and DECENT AT the platform is just suicide vs the heavy buffed axis AT

Go kite defensive shreks or tank hunter marder with your 75mm LOL

personally i dont use them either.

[DarkSoldierX]

So the P4 can penetrate a pershing... I'm still going to ask this...
WHAT THE FUCK IS A P4 DOING ENGAGING A PERSHING?
Wait a sec... WHY IS A SHERMAN FIGHTING HEAVY ARMOR?

Just cause you can does not mean its a good idea 

(Still, nice charts both of ya... make more! )

For many many reasons.

2 Blitzing P4 charge can take on a persh.
Persh move to flank Pak38. Your not REALLY going to waist 12 pop retreating your p4 and loosing your expensive AT would you?
Tiger gets surrounded by your team. You move back your sherman and your teamates will putup a ragefit.
Tiger is responding to your halftrack sticky flank. If he engages your sherman the halftrack is pretty much guaranteed to reach his target unless the enemy goes overload on AT.
You lolcharge a tiger with 2 75mm shermans not knowing how mediocre they are at penetrating tiger ass. Perhaps you should have gotten a upgun.

Many many more reasons.

In a true team game your medium tanks WILL engage their supposed counters.

Units do not exist in a single vacume.

[nikomas]

2 Blitzing P4 charge can take on a persh.

And I pity the fool who left his pershing without support with a blitzkrieg player on the field? Not so much for the blitz but the "LOLSTORMS"...

Persh move to flank Pak38. Your not REALLY going to waist 12 pop retreating your p4 and loosing your expensive AT would you?

Again, I pity the unsupported pershings in the company of this commander... Just becasue it beats a P4 does not mean it's a good idea to charge it when it has ATG support. I personally wouldnt charge AT gun + 75mm sherman with a single unsupported panther if we make an axis comparison, to risky unless game critical.

Tiger gets surrounded by your team. You move back your sherman and your teamates will putup a ragefit.

Tiger does not have support here either... noticing a trend here, either way the shermans role is now to tank shells, not to deal damage as far as I understand your example.
And if there are no tank hard counters nearby, personally I would retreat the damn sherman if there is no actual hard AT nearby to tank for.

Tiger is responding to your halftrack sticky flank. If he engages your sherman the halftrack is pretty much guaranteed to reach his target unless the enemy goes overload on AT.

Again thou, this is not about the shermans ability to damage or engage armor as much as it is tanking shells, other units could do this to.

You lolcharge a tiger with 2 75mm shermans not knowing how mediocre they are at penetrating tiger ass. Perhaps you should have gotten a upgun.

Fuck, I feel sorry for the tanks under that commander... hell, even if they were upgunned would they actually win? 

Many many more reasons.

In a true team game your medium tanks WILL engage their supposed counters.

Units do not exist in a single vacume.

Well, any unit will engage a counter if it could provide valuable time or distraction, but to me that is unrelated to the ability of the unit itself... Hell, I took out a P4 at 20% health with a pair of T17's the other day, it's not a good idea but sometimes you get lucky and that stuff.

But all this conversation really says is... Medium tanks are kind of crappy and Tank Destroyers and Heavy Tanks are the best options...
I think that sort of sucks to be honest, becasue when I started the game I always had a few shermans or PzKpfw IV's in my companies...

These days it's just tank destroyers/LV's for allies and heavy tanks/assault guns for axis... not even the Armor T4 or Blitz Dual T3's make the medium tanks feel worth it...




Really thou, my opinion is based on my playstyle (Balanced But Specialized Coy's). Meaning if I have it in my coy its one of two things, There to (A) Hardcounter or (B) cannonfodder. I liked shermans as AI tanks but LV's fill that role much better, I liked PZ4's as AI/LV counters but here instead axis elite infartry does much better, given you play one of the many doc's that have them*. Even then, allied infartry cant really scratch heavy tanks so they can take care of them if push comes to shove.

Just my opinion thou.

[DarkSoldierX]

I never said they didn't have support... those were simply pieces of a battle that do happen with or without support, weither people on forums like it or not.

[nikomas]

Theres the thing... anything can do well with proper support, but that does not mean the other options arent better.

[smurfORnot]

nikomas,didnt you say how your blitz stugs with dual t3 were awesome when we played once?

[AmPM]

nikomas,didnt you say how your blitz stugs with dual t3 were awesome when we played once?

STUG = Medium Tank? Since when?

Anyway, Mediums serve a purpose, for when all you have left for fuel is enough for a P4 and you need some ok Anti Infantry ability...well, that and to suck up ATG shots for the heavies....

[brn4meplz]

DarkSoldier, I fucking laughed so hard at that Penetration comparison. HA HA HA well done.

[BigDick]

For many many reasons.

2 Blitzing P4 charge can take on a persh.

hardly...a pershing needs around 53 seconds to kill both p4 while both p4 would need almost 87 seconds to kill the pershing
if you throw in blitzkrieg ability it gives you 25% better reload which makes the p4s still need 65 seconds (not even calculating the 25% more misses cos of blitz penalty)
and if you not manage to back the fuck up or to get some support in a minute while driving around with an unsupported pershing than you should deinstall coh

so no sry  

So the P4 can penetrate a pershing... I'm still going to ask this...
WHAT THE FUCK IS A P4 DOING ENGAGING A PERSHING?
Wait a sec... WHY IS A SHERMAN FIGHTING HEAVY ARMOR?

Persh move to flank Pak38. Your not REALLY going to waist 12 pop retreating your p4 and loosing your expensive AT would you?

if the pershing flanks the pak you can block it with the p4 and the pak will do the job
but generally no one should send the pershing without support which can kill at guns

i find it very amusing how you try to prove how bad the penetration of a sherman against super heavy armor like jagdpanthers, kingtigers or heavys like Tigers is
same goes to the "good penetration" of P4s against M10s/hellcats

i can imagine now why you have a hard time ingame and fail somehow to get benefit out of your units when you try to take on heavys/superheavies with infantry support tanks alone

or fighting tanksdestroyes with them (i wonder how your "experience of m10s/m18s - p4 combat  )
yes a p4 has an awesome penetration against m10/m18 armor

and no you don't immediately retreat your tanks because heavies/tankhunters made it onto the field
eir is a team game there are always things to do and places to fight for your stuff no need to feed jagdpanthers with shermans

protip: look for the next AT gun and put your sherman behind the owner of AT gun will be thankful

Its true, unless your superskilled and your motorcycle somehow stays alive for a entire duration of a game, your sherman/P4 WILL get into battles with the enemy TDs.

i think you does not know that the m18 has 46 sight and 45 range and superior speed does awesome 141 damage
while the p4 same as "normal" tanks usually get 35sight and has just 40 range and 87.5damage and 19% longer reload

so no again, u does not need to be able to shoot at "tankdestroyers" while the m18 is laughing and run&gunning you down in notime
the m10 on other hand has more range damage etc. but he has just normal sight so without spotter he will take 1 or 2 shots but still an absolutely stupid idea to fight m10s with p4s

i demand a mentoring person for darksoldier who schools him how to play and tell him to at least try to gtfo of combat when being focused with his mediums when tankdestroyers or heavies are around (even when some TDs can hunt you down merciless) and to not fight jagdpanthers and kingtigers with shermans?

Anyone taking care on him?

[Ahnungsloser]

When you're playing as US the most tanks are used to eat some shells, like rifles as a meatshield for flametrowers. The
ATGs make the deal.

P4 Vs M10 = 160.8% Chance
P4 Vs Cromwell = 122% Chance
P4 Vs Sherm = 62.25% Chance
P4 Vs Church = 58.04% Chance
P4 Vs Jumbo = 37.53% Chance
P4 Vs Pershing = 32.52% Chance

P4 Looses 9.1% penetration at medium range and 19.5% at long range.

Sherman 75mm Pen Tables

75mm vs Ostwind = 97.8%
75mm vs P4 = 58.64%
75mm vs Stug = 34.6%
75mm vs Hetzer = 29.63%
75mm vs Tiger = 24.2%
75mm vs Panther= 19.75%
75mm Vs Jagdpanther = 14.35% chance

Quite good, but the chain of thoughts hasn't finished by you. And the last sentence in bolded font
are absolutly excrescent . Penetration is just one aspect in this discussion.
I can remember that i said try to be discrete, or?

[DarkSoldierX]

HERP DERP

Perhaps you need some pills lol.

You said it yourself,
P4 does NOT have superior penetration.

I prooved you wrong, and even used a % comparison that fits your style.

 I never said you were supposed to attack M10s all on your own with a P4, lol.

And Auhnugsloser, lol, be descrete? Ok.

bigdick is wrong

[BigDick]

Perhaps you need some pills lol.

You said it yourself,
P4 does NOT have superior penetration.

I prooved you wrong, and even used a % comparison that fits your style.

dude learn to read i talked about p4 and sherman against each other both have shit penetration against heavy armor and obviously im a more skilled player than u because i don't try to take on heavies or tankdestroyers with medium infantry support tanks when i can avoid it

i even try to avoid fighting against other mediums without AT support

but you prove my point that ur crying for a mentor - someone with enough patience helps this guy to become a better player please 

[Ahnungsloser]

As a american player the ATGs makes the deal, not the Tanks. The tanks your only used to prevent ATGs fromt destroying/decrewing.
In the most games the Axis said that the ATGs where so annoying that they had know chance for gaining map control etc.
The allied tanks are not the problem.

[Mister Schmidt]

New guy puts beatdown on everyone.

Epic.

[nikomas]

nikomas,didnt you say how your blitz stugs with dual t3 were awesome when we played once?

Heavy tanks and Assault Guns

[DarkSoldierX]

dude learn to read i talked about p4 and sherman against each other both have shit penetration against heavy armor and obviously im a more skilled player than u because i don't try to take on heavies or tankdestroyers with medium infantry support tanks when i can avoid it

Seems you still cant read.

I never said you were supposed to attack M10s all on your own with a P4, lol.

So why is P4 much better against heavy armour then?

It has a moderate chance of penetrating a church. And your actually rewarded a considerable amount for good play like flanking a pershing.

While on the other hand a sherman on the other hand is hardly rewarded by flanking a tiger, and has little chance of damaging anything past a P4, which it looses to anyway.


Oh and did you forget that the p4 also deals more DPS per second?

It is FACT, stock P4 has superior AT capabilities. Especially when it does win vs sherman ~70% of the time. And yes thats a scientific calculated number.

Oh and another reason why you are stupid is because you ONLY put a p4 vs a sherman. Thats 1 matchup out of many different vehicles.

What if I said stens do so much less dps vs fallschrimjeagers? Well durr thats like 1 matchup out of like 15.

As a american player the ATGs makes the deal, not the Tanks. The tanks your only used to prevent ATGs fromt destroying/decrewing.
In the most games the Axis said that the ATGs where so annoying that they had know chance for gaining map control etc.
The allied tanks are not the problem.

With different styles of well thought out play you can MAKE the allied tanks the problem.

[BigDick]

Seems you still cant read.So why is P4 much better against heavy armour then?

It has a moderate chance of penetrating a church.

dude a churchill is no "heavy armor" (in meaning of heavy tanks) a mk6 is 260 fuel thats 10 more than a p4

and actually i refuse to discuss with you anymore all i have to say is l2p until that good luck using your infantry support tanks vs. armor/heavy armor