[US] "Extended Belts" (Sherman Upgrade)

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[TheVolskinator]

Realising that this concept was shot down before, I thought "the hell with it" and came under the beleif that this would be a good upgrade for the Sherman. This is all open to discussion, and the numbers are less then concrete. This is me just shitting out an idea that popped into my head, inspired after watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPYFU4hXDg4

Now, the old proposition was that tanks would have their hull and coaxial MGs changed to the LMG42/M1919 LMG; this was soundly rejected by the community (which I, looking back, support as sensible). However, in recent topics it has been generaly acknowledged by the community that the M4 Sherman is woefully lacking in, shall we say, field prescence in the confines of an average EiR game--before someone says it, yes, it's a pretty good tank in a vacuum.

So, for ~60 MU (this is open to change, but any higher and the Sherman would be too much of a MU investment, and it's almost too much of one as it is), I'm proposing that the M4 Sherman receive two M1919A4 LMGs (the very same as the one carried by Marines/Airborne) with 40 range (if they don't have it already, iirc they might), one replacing both the co-axial and one replacing the hull-mounted MGs on the Sherman, in addition to mounting a the .50 caliber MG on the turret. The drawback to this upgrade? It overlaps the upgun and possibly the lesser used smoke canister and crap flail.

The Sherman is now a powerful infantry support tank that can fight off a P4 jihad style if someone was stupid enough to use it that way. Before shouts of OP start going up, remmeber that the upgun would be blocked, and the Sherman 75mm is less then scary to enemy armor.

EDIT: Pushing the Sherman into a niche as an IST rather then a medium tank.

Discuss.

[Demon767]

The sherman 75 already snipes 2 infantry at a time, coupled with all the Mgs, German infantry will be instabigged in seconds.. FROM LONG RANGE!

inb4 lock

-.-

[AmPM]

I have an idea!!! Lets give the P4, 2 LMG42's as well!!

[hans]

well,

it seems not bad and +1 for u having so many ideas.

but the problem why the sherman is lacking fieldpresence is not that hes bad in killing inf. A 75 mm sherman is pretty epic in killing inf tbh. but

the problem is if u got the 75 mm on the field, its 12 pop that will be a inf support tank and is totally helpless against any axis armour. tiger and panther are eating shermans for breakfast.

[Demon767]

well,

it seems not bad and +1 for u having so many ideas.

but the problem why the sherman is lacking fieldpresence is not that hes bad in killing inf. A 75 mm sherman is pretty epic in killing inf tbh. but

the problem is if u got the 75 mm on the field, its 12 pop that will be a inf support tank and is totally helpless against any axis armour. tiger and panther are eating shermans for breakfast.

IST builds dont have a problem.

[Audemed]

IST's are also 10 pop and don't have to worry about panthers.

[NightRain]

I have an idea!!! Lets give the P4, 2 LMG42's as well!!

+1

P4s are shitty and would love this.

The only reason Axis are using heavy tanks is because their medium (P4s) are plain terrible. Because of this Allies are currently spamming 57mms and M10s and shit so using P4s is a death sentence. (StuGs can manage yay!). Therefore Panthers and other heavy armor glamore rolls the field as they have SLIGHTLY better protection versus the current metagame. TDs and 57mms rolled by BARs.

Strange enough, British are always a weird exception and aren't customated to run anything standard...their basic at is always 1-2 fireflies and blob of 6 pdrs. Some piats (this is a big maybe) rest is infantry.

[Demon767]

IST's are also 10 pop and don't have to worry about panthers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eNrgpVp70U

Use your AT

[Hicks58]

By the way, if the RGD's are anything to go by, there is pretty much bugger all difference in AI effectiveness between the 75mm and the upgun.

75mm has 0.25/1/3 splash range

76mm has 0.25/1/1.5 splash range

Oh and Volski, I've been toying around with 75mm Shermans using USK. They can do very well if you get them to vet 1, as they'll require an extra two Tiger/Panther hits to go down. Used as infantry support and infantry hunters explicitly, they do a fine job. They'll also make a mess of a fair bit of PE kit too. I've regularly had them get at least 20 infantry kills a piece and often a LV/HV kill or two depending on opponent faction.

They have the speed to get the flank on Paks/Marders should you be on the ball with an appropriate distraction. Kite Shrecks, flank paks, and stay away from the heavies/use them as a meat shield for ATG's. They need a bit of love and attention but they'll do the job.

[kwiatekkek]

USK t4  shermans  are beast actualy.
ive played  round  50-60  games on my usk t4 and always  used shermans.
u can  easly  get round 20 inf kill with  those , and if you  go  for  double  repair oh well... them things  just keep  comin back ...
I dont  actualy  understand  the  whole  theory of  shermans  lacking in the field  presence.
shermans  are the  best mbt in the game period and u  want to buff them  even moar ?
dude  dat  .50 cal  allready rapes  inf  close range , my shermans laugh at double shreck  stormies and its  not the HE shell but in fact a .50cal...
so  i duno maybe just maybe   a nice  cup of  l2play should be in order here.

[SpaceHamster]

It rapes infantry.

I have yet to meet one wehrmacht who does not get a pak.

[Rainbows]

@Hicks: I know we've talked about this before, but I still think you put way too little value on overall splash radius. There is A LOT more to tanks than instagibbing, hence why people tend to buy MG upgrades. The outer radius of the splash is still doing half of a Volksgrenadier's health, and one third of a Grenadier's health. Having twice the radius makes it much easier to hit the full squad, and there IS a noticeable difference in AI capability when your shots are doing an extra 60-120 damage to the squad as a whole.

I would rather have .25/1/3 than .5/1/1.5. Even though the full damage radius of the splash is doubled in the latter, that's already such a tiny little radius that it's not really going to hit any extra infantry unless they're all bunched up in one spot.

[kwiatekkek]

I have yet to meet one wehrmacht who does not get a pak.

wel obviously  ure not  gonna  sherman rush a  double  shreck  squad with a  pak  support ,
 ure gonna   loose terribly  and  look  stupid in front of  your teammates...

[Demon767]

I have yet to meet one wehrmacht who does not get a pak.

I have yet to meet one allied who does not use ATG.

[kwiatekkek]

I have yet to meet one allied who does not use ATG.

u mean  4  lol

[TheVolskinator]

So, I see a lot of super-strong opposition to this because it would flatten any axis infantry it gets into range of (just like the IST does to allied troops, gasp!), and that the Sherman kills everything from long range etc etc. Well, with 75% accuracy at long range I've had a lot of Shermans with the Beer Goggles upgrade before. While I realise that the Sherman is already an extremely good AI investment, I don't see how this would turn it into a take-all-comers instawin machine. How many Shermans do you guys see rolling about on a regular basis anyways? Would you rather fight Shermans or the TD horde that NightRain was so avidly QQing about?

[DarkSoldierX]

I dont see anything wrong with a 75mm sherman getting 2 M1919a6 LMG replacements if he pays for them. Terror gets a weaker free version in thier T3.

[smurfORnot]

just like the IST does to allied troops, gasp

thing is,IST still isnt that good,last ones I saw used were by smokaz in those 3 games replay,and they did shit. To be very effective,you need to lock down,which means death if there is atg around. ANd they eat fair chunk of fuel,which doesnt leave much for marders,so you need to use crapy 50mm. TBH I dotn see them much in the games. If I want AI,I just take troops or scout cars,much more fuel effective! Locked down SC can survive 3 atg shots and maybe dodge another one if lucky,4-5 atg shots will kit IST,30fuel vs 205 fuel 

[NightRain]

Plus, ISTs only have 35 range so anything with a brain can kite them.

I won't mind if P4s would get LMG upgrade similar to Shermans if such thing would take place...then P4 MIGHT be useful.

[Demon767]

You are silly Volks, comparing it to the IST

IST has short range, has to lock down to come to the 80% pwoer of what you suggested. allies also have more infantry, more units to kill with a round

what you are suggesting is a long range IST, that kills half the squad most likely at first round at long range, then proceeds to mow the rest down (as shooting as inf in cover, destroys cover and inf run away, then destroyed by the MGs)

you are a flop volks.