Tellermines

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[Ahnungsloser]

In the last few days i noticed that spamming Tellerminen is a new practice tactic. As a US-Armour player
it pisses me totally off that a single Tellermine can demolish a M10 with a single hit, while lighter units
like  Stuart Light Tank survive a single hit and have the chance to turn the repair on.
(At least i watched a replay and noticed this questionable characteristic)
What's the reason that a Tellermine (70 Munition) is able to counter 300 Manpower, 200 Fuel and 75 Mun while
lighter vehicle have the chance to survive it?

Some of you would say i should bring Minesweeper on the field but the Minesweeper are so weak that they
will be focussed down by other units or even if i defused one Mine, I hit another Mine.
On the games where Tellermines got spammed i lost up to 2x M10 Wolverine, 2x ATG and a M8 Greyhound.
350 Mun vs. ~1500 Manpower/ ~500 Mun/ ~500 Fuel. (This was one of my unluckiest games against this strategy but
it seems that it can be pretty effective).


I don't know how to "fix-it", but maybe it is possible to modify the basic damage or the damage multipliers of the target table.

[Smokaz]

Tellermine spam is mainly good because you can spam them on a otherwise normal unit. This gives you makeshift AI from the panzergrens, especially on building maps where they can infest houses to give their little zergman buff.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Using lots of Teller mines aren't a new tactic, it's just one that isn't very common. Early last week I decided to start using my PE TH company again (which uses a lot of Teller mines) which is why you have been seeing it a lot lately.

I'm not sure why some lighter vehicles like a stuart can survive a Teller mine, but in fact sometimes a Hellcat or a Wolverine can survive them aswell (albeit with a destroyed engine and a sliver of health).


In terms of the destructive power of a teller mine, it is a 75 munition investment for a risky opportunity. You pay 75 munitions with the hope that A) the enemy will hit the mine, and that B) the enemy will not have a 80 mp, 10 muni unit or a mineflail to completely negate the mine.


Teller mines are a devestating weapon when used against players who are not prepared for them. When used against players who are prepared for them, however they become a massive liability for the TH player. Minesweepers, mine flails and even flamethrowers (when on my brits I use my croc to clear mines to great effect) are all simple counters to teller mines that, unfortunately, many players are unwilling or simply too lazy to use.


If you are not prepared at all to face Tellers (few or no minesweepers, using your vehicles aggressivly without sweeping) you are going to take significant losses to them. But they are not overpowered because they have simple and effective counters. They are overpowered when the enemy team is lazy and feels they shouldn't have to play different, or adjust their company to face specific opponents.


Look at it this way: if you know you're playing someone who uses lots of tellermines, adjust your company. In doing so, you will be making a large portion of their munition investment (in some cases up to 80% of their munitions) absolutely useless. That is an opportunity that should never be passed up.


Again, Teller mine spam depends upon laziness and hubris from its opponents. It's a strategy that can be countered almost completely, but which forces the person fighting it to rethink their strategy. In essence, it should actually makes players play more realistically (no more cavalier, fearless roaming LV's and TD's roaming about way behind enemy lines without any support) and carefully.


-Wind

[hans]

well to counter tellerminespam th coys i got in each callin at least 1 minesweeper (10 in total)

[Demon767]

use minesweepers

[Ahnungsloser]

@Hans/Demon767
I use minesweeper.
In one game the Axis where so demolish that they nuked them with Offmaps and Scoarched Earth Hummel Barrages.

@TheWindCriesMary:
There is no way that a M10 Wolverine or M18 Hellcat can survive a Tellermine hit. The Tellermine has a basic damage of 400 - 500 and there is
no damage modifier for normal cover types. A M10/M18 have 400HP so that there is a 100% chance to finish it. With the -15% damage reduction
at vet 1 there is a ~30% chance to kill when it's on full health. ( 470 - 500 would finish the tank destroyer, everything beyond this not)

When the M10/M18 at vet 1 lose only 60HP there is a 100% finishing chance for the Tellermine.


Edit:
The Stuart has a 0.5x damage modifier and with 300HP it has a 100% chance to survive a single Tellermine hit.

[LeoPhone]

the tellermine has about 57% chance to kill a vet 0 m10
and there is a chance the m10 "dodges" the teller with vehicle cover (25% chance)

[Ahnungsloser]

the tellermine has about 57% chance to kill a vet 0 m10
and there is a chance the m10 "dodges" the teller with vehicle cover (25% chance)

1. Why 57% - Have the M10/M18 more HP in EIR as in vCOH? (Not 400HP)
2. How does vehicle cover work?


For all who are interested in vehicle cover:
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/portals.php?show=page&name=coh-synoptic-guide-vehicle-cover

[EliteGren]

You first ask how it works, and then you put down a link and answer your own question? AFAIK It's a 57% chance because it might not get the kill critical but other crits like main gun destroyed or engine destroyed. It has nothing to do with HP

[Ahnungsloser]

You first ask how it works, and then you put down a link and answer your own question?

At first i asked for it but then i searched for the answer by myself, edited my post and put the link into the last post because it's a good guide.
I don't think that anybody would post such a detailed instruction about vehicle cover.
The next time somebody reads this post he can click on the link and check out some stuff about vehicle cover.


Am I right that the Tellermine has a basic accuracy of 2? (200%)
Even with the vehicle cover *I'd rather put a Tellermine on a road..* and the non existent moving accuracy modifier would result in 150% accuracy.
Then how should the M10 dodge the Tellermine?

AFAIK It's a 57% chance because it might not get the kill critical but other crits like main gun destroyed or engine destroyed. It has nothing to do with HP

Okay. Sounds legit. But...
The only things i could why are the main critical target tables (tp_armour, tp_armour_rear) and the specific priority of the contained critical
at these table. How can i calculate the 57% with this infomations?



(Sorry for the notorious inquire but i want to understand it)

[Nijo]

Mines are highly effectiv against vehicles. Especially tellermines. But they are still immobile traps wich can be sweept or destroyed.

And if you know or find out the hard way that your Enemy is using mines, you simply have to be more carefull while pushing. I had the same with Wind yesterday


~Nijo~

[TheWindCriesMary]

Am I right that the Tellermine has a basic accuracy of 2? (200%)
Even with the vehicle cover *I'd rather put a Tellermine on a road..* and the non existent moving accuracy modifier would result in 150% accuracy.
Then how should the M10 dodge the Tellermine?

The M10 should dodge the tellermine by not just roaming about carelessly wherever it wants -- especially on roads and places where it would be logical for your enemy to place mines.

Sweep, clear and advance with strategic caution. That's how you dodge teller mines and waste hundreds (and possibly thousands) of your enemy's munitions.

-Wind

[Poppi]

I was a victim of Winds mighty tellermine spam. If you cover a whole flank with mines most likely it will pay off.  But my fault for not bringing a minesweeper.

Problem is that the mines will knock down a m10/m18 to like 10% health and damage engine at the very least. Why so much damage?

[hans]

The M10 should dodge the tellermine by not just roaming about carelessly wherever it wants -- especially on roads and places where it would be logical for your enemy to place mines.

-Wind

its all about the experience tbh, u dont even need minesweepers if u play carefully. Scouting is essentially too

[TheWindCriesMary]

Problem is that the mines will knock down a m10/m18 to like 10% health and damage engine at the very least. Why so much damage?

Because it's a 75 munition mine. For 70 munitions you can get 4  normal mines with a US company and 4 normal mines is more damage and area denial than just 1.

-J

[Ahnungsloser]

Because it's a 75 munition mine. For 70 munitions you can get 4  normal mines with a US company and 4 normal mines is more damage and area denial than just 1.

But you forget that every unit can blow them off, while the Tellermines provide you a WTF!pwn because you forget that infantry squads can't set
them off and you thought the area is clean. 

[Tymathee]

I seriously hate Teller Mines, we need some AI only mines for Allies.

I mean ffs, axis already have strong AT, and then they get Tellers?

[Smokaz]

Again, Teller mine spam depends upon laziness and hubris from its opponents. It's a strategy that can be countered almost completely, but which forces the person fighting it to rethink their strategy. In essence, it should actually makes players play more realistically (no more cavalier, fearless roaming LV's and TD's roaming about way behind enemy lines without any support) and carefully.

Aaaaaaaand the unit type pool cost. Imagine if pios had 2 kar98s instead of mp40s, or if engineers had normal rifles. Then their pool cost for minespam would be closer to justified.

Teller mine spam is possible mainly because of it having a superior AI on the mine carriers and superior pool cost.

[Tymathee]

Aaaaaaaand the unit type pool cost. Imagine if pios had 2 kar98s instead of mp40s, or if engineers had normal rifles. Then their pool cost for minespam would be closer to justified.

Teller mine spam is possible mainly because of it having a superior AI on the mine carriers and superior pool cost.

for once i agree with smoker, if they weren't on normal pzgrens it might not be as big of an issue as all you have to really do is spam pzgrens and u can have a ton of tellers.

maybe they should only be on tank busters.

[AmPM]

I seriously hate Teller Mines, we need some AI only mines for Allies.

I mean ffs, axis already have strong AT, and then they get Tellers?

Wait, what? Allies have strong AT too!! Nerf allied mines!