Addressing the viability of medium armour

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[pqumsieh]

@8th since when did M18s have equal killing powers of a Panther?

[8thRifleRegiment]

Panther Gun 137.5 damage
M18 Gun 112.5 damage

But the m18 has a 5% better deflection multiplier then the panther. M18 has a 20% while the panther only a 15%
Math Factored in, the M18 does 22.5 damage on a deflection Vs the Panther only doing 20.625

M18 also has 10% better moving accuracy

Panther gun has 2.5 more range on its gun vs the 45 on the m18,

M18 fires faster with a 4.2 second cooldown with 1 second duration multiplier across all ranges Vs The Panther at 7 secondes with also a 1 seconde multiplier.
So in the scenario provided, Each tank fires constantly for 1 full minute

The M18 would pump out 28 rounds in 2 minutes (rounded to the nearest whole) for a total of 3150 total damage, now to factor in penetraion values,
First at distant range, the hellcat has a 63% penetration modifier, which means 37% of your shells will bounce, 37% of 28 is 10 (rounded). The amount of damage 10 deflected shells will inflict is 225+the amount of damage that 18 penetrating shots would do which is 2025
For a grand total of 2250 damage in 2 minutes at *distant range*.

The Panther would pump out 18 rounds in 2 minutes (rounded to the nearest whole) for a total of 2475, now to factor in penetration values, at distand range it has an 83.5% penetration modifier, which means only 16.5% of your rounds will bounce, 16.5% of 18 is 3 (rounded). The amount of damage 3 deflected shells will inflict is 62+ the amount of damage that 15 penetrating shots would do, which is 2062.5
For a grand total of  2124.5 damage in 2 minutes at *distant range*

For the price you pay for either, its pretty damn close, hell the m18 ends up doing more damage, and you pay alot less for it, im fully aware of the armor and health that a panther has over a hellcat.

Target tables could be considerd but it would open up a huge array arguements because each tank does not fire at the same targets and the modifiers are all differant for every tank, comparing each tank against another tank would just open up an arguement for each tank vs another, when in this scenario both tanks are on an even lvl. im 100% aware of the fact that these numbers are not factored into target tables, but atleast it gives people an idea of what thier looking at, if people wanna add thier favorite target table to showcase thier bias, feel free. But when both units are in the same environment, its an even playing field and the numbers are correct.

All ive done is given a base for people to refer to. Each differant tank V tank is a totally differant scenario, but these numbers will always stand as a base

[AmPM]

Panther Gun 137.5 damage
M18 Gun 112.5 damage

But the m18 has a 5% better deflection multiplier then the panther. M18 has a 20% while the panther only a 15%
Math Factored in, the M18 does 22.5 damage on a deflection Vs the Panther only doing 20.625

M18 also has 10% better moving accuracy

Panther gun has 2.5 more range on its gun vs the 45 on the m18,

M18 fires faster with a 4.2 second cooldown with 1 second duration multiplier across all ranges Vs The Panther at 7 secondes with also a 1 seconde multiplier.
So in the scenario provided, Each tank fires constantly for 1 full minute

The M18 would pump out 28 rounds in 2 minutes (rounded to the nearest whole) for a total of 3150 total damage, now to factor in penetraion values,
First at distant range, the hellcat has a 63% penetration modifier, which means 37% of your shells will bounce, 37% of 28 is 10 (rounded). The amount of damage 10 deflected shells will inflict is 225+the amount of damage that 18 penetrating shots would do which is 2025
For a grand total of 2250 damage in 2 minutes at *distant range*.

The Panther would pump out 18 rounds in 2 minutes (rounded to the nearest whole) for a total of 2475, now to factor in penetration values, at distand range it has an 83.5% penetration modifier, which means only 16.5% of your rounds will bounce, 16.5% of 18 is 3 (rounded). The amount of damage 3 deflected shells will inflict is 62+ the amount of damage that 15 penetrating shots would do, which is 2062.5
For a grand total of  2124.5 damage in 2 minutes at *distant range*

For the price you pay for either, its pretty damn close

You messed up on your values. You need to include target tables. You also need to compare survivability.

A good Panther user will destroy a ton of infantry and vehicles easily, from any range, and only has to worry about AP Round 57's. The M18 is cheaper, but dies to anything that gets in range.

Can you kill a Panther with an M18? Yes, but it requires terrain and cunning. Hell, if medium tanks had 45 range they would be hard to engage with an M18 too.

[NightRain]

If it isn't the solution what is? Nerfing TD? Buffing mediums? There isn't really any alternative. You can sacrifice 1x M10 to kill a P4 and come ontop with cost every time.

Lets see.

300 manpower 210 fuel Hellcat 10 pop (35 mun MG, 30 mun repair 15 mun hawkins mine)
300 manpower 200 fuel M10 10 pop (30 mun repair)

395 manpower 240 fuel Sherman 12 pop (50 mun mg, 50 mun repair, 30 fuel upgun, 20 smoke, 30 crabflail)
Upgun Sherman 395 manopower 270 fuel. 12 pop

400 manpower 250 fuel Panzer 4 12 pop (50 mg, 50 repair, 30 fuel skirts)
400 manpower 290 fuel Skirted P4. 12 pop.

600 manpower 450 fuel Panther 14 pop (30 MG, 60 repair, 40 fuel skirts)
600 manpower 490 fuel Skirted Panther.

At max fuel(1500 fuel) you get:
7x Hellcats
7x M10s

6x Non-upgun Shermans
5x Upgun Shermans

6x Non skirted P4s
5x Skirted P4s
3x Skirted/Non-skirted Panthers.

Just by looking this I can already guarantee that 7x Hellcats or M10s will provide you more than those 6 or 5 Shermans. Just by thinking all the resources:

6x Standard upgraded Shermans= 100x6 (Some people use smoke but I didn't count it in, if you buy smoke add 120 mun more to it) 600 munitions on those Shermans. With M10s? 30x6 = 180 mun.

Lets see a 7x Standardly upgraded M18s and M10s in total resource cost and compared it to mediums.

7x M18: 2100 manpower  360 munitions 1470 fuel
7x M10: 2100 manpower  180 munitions 1400 fuel

6x M4 Sherman: 2370 manpower 600 munitions 1440 fuel (if smoke included + 120 munitions)
5x Upgun M4 Sherman: 1970 manpower 600 munitions 1350 fuel (if smoke included + 100 munitions)

6x Panzer 4: 2400 manpower 600 munitions  1500 fuel
5x Skirted Panzer 4s: 2000 manpower 600 munitions 1450 fuel.

For Panthers

Skirt: 1800 manpower  270 munitions  1470 fuel
Non-Skirt: 1800 manpower 270 munitions 1350 fuel

Now look at these numbers and you will automatically see that TDs are just cheaper than the mediums and therefore requires a price nerf. I rest my case.

I propose a Price increase to TDs.

[Ahnungsloser]

@8thRifle:

A M18 has penetrations valuues of 0.75/0.69/0.63 and the x0.4 Modifier against Panther Armour,
the Panther has 1/0.9/0.83 and a x0.6 Modifier against a Hellcat.

At Midrange you can divide the damage with 4 because only one of four shells will penetrate the Panther while the
Panther will penetrate with every second shell and when you observace that the Hellcat has nearly half as much Healthpoints
as a Panther you will notice that Panther will have no problem on the battlefield.

In vCoh a Panther costs twice as much as a M10/M18, in EIR two Hellcats costs less then a single Panther but if you look at
the pop values (And the low ammount of pop you have) the Player with the two Hellcats will have some hard times to kill your
panther because the player will have a lack of AI in this moment when he field two of them. You can say that destroying
2x Hellcats costs much more ressources as the Hellcats, but a Panther and one ATG can defeat them easily without loses.

[smurfORnot]

panther + atg - 17pop(or 19,not sure) ,everything  allied player needs against that is stickie squad+atg,that actually leaves you as axis on disadvantage,because you dont have enough ai against what everything allie can the bring.

[DarkSoldierX]

A M18 has penetrations valuues of 0.75/0.69/0.63 and the x0.4 Modifier against Panther Armour,
the Panther has 1/0.9/0.83 and a x0.6 Modifier against a Hellcat.

A panther 75mm CANNOT bounce off a M18's armour unless the game bugs. Most AT weapons will always penetrate m10/m18.

[hans]

panther + atg - 17pop(or 19,not sure) ,everything  allied player needs against that is stickie squad+atg,that actually leaves you as axis on disadvantage,because you dont have enough ai against what everything allie can the bring.

well and 1 kch oakleave leaves the atg + sticky rifle on disadvantage. well did u ever heard sth about counters?

[AmPM]

Or for even less cost, 1 HMG...

Anyway, the cost isn't the problem so much as the cost of mediums, increasing the cost of TDs only makes heavy tanks more viable.

[hans]

if u are forced to play with less m10s and more shermans, most players gonna shift to axis i guess. Shermans are very weak against tiger panther and jagdpanther.

[NightRain]

if u are forced to play with less m10s and more shermans, most players gonna shift to axis i guess. Shermans are very weak against tiger panther and jagdpanther.

Heavy tank, Tank destroyer, Super heavy each costing around twice as much

I can see why. I can see a M10 losing to them as well. Panther and JP have same range and can boomstick them down faster than a sherman. A Tiger can't shoot back though and can be kited.
 But just because even M10 would lose doesn't justify it to be cheaper, by this logic Sherman should be cheaper or more effective so that it can replace TD role if M10s and Hellcats went up in price. It doesn't work like that.

Heavies don't become as much viable as they are now. If TD was to increase people would chose medium over heavies because mediums becomes more useful without Tank destroyers lolling in every single corner.

[8thRifleRegiment]

if u are forced to play with less m10s and more shermans, most players gonna shift to axis i guess. Shermans are very weak against tiger panther and jagdpanther.

price of all Tds go up, axis ones included, it will force you to actually use them properly rather then always suiciding 2-3 of them at an enemy tank.

[Hicks58]

If TD price goes up, their performance should too.

Seeing a TD should be scary shit that makes you stop and think for a second. It shouldn't be another part of the zerg swarm. Make them expensive, but make them fuck tanks up. Losing one should be a loss well felt, not a case of lulz, I'll just pull another of my 6 in reserve.

[AmPM]

Heavy tank, Tank destroyer, Super heavy each costing around twice as much

I can see why. I can see a M10 losing to them as well. Panther and JP have same range and can boomstick them down faster than a sherman. A Tiger can't shoot back though and can be kited.
 But just because even M10 would lose doesn't justify it to be cheaper, by this logic Sherman should be cheaper or more effective so that it can replace TD role if M10s and Hellcats went up in price. It doesn't work like that.

Heavies don't become as much viable as they are now. If TD was to increase people would chose medium over heavies because mediums becomes more useful without Tank destroyers lolling in every single corner.

False, if TDs go up in price it means more heavies, you don't have as many counters to your heavies and you can still rape mediums all day. The issue is the cost of medium tanks compared to their counters. Are you suddenly going to do better or worse vs 3 Panthers with Shermans instead of M18's? The Shermans will do worse in almost all cases.

Same for Shermans vs Tigers, KT, Jadg, etc.

Doesn't effect Axis as much due to there only being 1 heavy Allied tank.

[tank130]

the Player with the two Hellcats will have some hard times to kill your
panther because the player will have a lack of AI in this moment when he field two of them.

Wrong. The hellcat has good AI abilities even if you do not include crush. Include crush and it is a 2 unit wrecking machine.

[AmPM]

Wrong. The hellcat has good AI abilities even if you do not include crush. Include crush and it is a 2 unit wrecking machine.

Not really...get 2-3 and they can suppress, but 9 pop of HTs does that.

They can snipe, but only vs unsupported infantry. Medium tank cost vs effectiveness is the real issue. Costs of AT and Heavies mean mediums are less efficient for what they do. I never bring a Hellcat to dual role, I bring it to kill tanks, the BARs and HMGs do the AI work.

[8thRifleRegiment]

and so, the endless theory crafting begins....

[hans]

and so, the endless theory crafting begins....

it already started

[AmPM]

and so, the endless theory crafting begins....

Which is amazingly a key element in interfaction balance! Imagine that!

[Hicks58]

Tbf, I just love how I made a thread and it got to 14 pages.

Go me n' shit.