Defensive Help needed

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[EiRAccount]

I'm new to EiR and after a few games I got sick of losing. I play defensive doctrine and I get pummeled everytime. My Flak 88 just gets destroyed by artillery, my grenadiers just get slaughtered by commandos as well as my officer. I've deleted 12 companies because I KEEP LOSING EVERYTHING! so could anyone give me some tips or tricks and some advice on what I should send to the field early on and later?

[CrazyWR]

Well, there are several important features of any competent company.

In the beginning, you start with 25 pop.  This starting callin needs to contain the following elements generally: 2 forms of anti-tank(usually a shrek gren and a pak), some for of indirect fire(sniper or mortar usually), some way to slow down infantry(usually an hmg).  The rest of the 25 pop is up to you.  Defensive doctrine has a couple of unlocks that make various starting callins more attractive.  The ability to unlock dual shreks on grens allows you to pretty much shut down armor in the beginning between one gren squad and a pak, allowing you to spend the rest of that 15 pop exclusively on anti-infantry.  Without this, it helps to have a mine or some panzerfausts or a goliath to help just in case.  The ability to buy 2 mines on your pioneers is another unlock that is helpful, 2 mines placed well can stop a lot of armor rushes.  Having an officer with artillery in your start can allow you to skip the indirect fire listed and just use the arty to clear out enemy indirect fire or whatever is stopping you from attacking.  

I use the following for my core in my defensive company (I have 2 mines unlocked):  4 pioneers with flames and 2x mines, 1 pak, 1 gren with shrek +nade, 1 mg, 1 mortar.  Its pretty flexibile and as long as you get the mines down, you are pretty safe from everything, which is the goal of the start of the game.

The rest of your callins(generally) should be between 8-13 pop to allow for easy replacement of losses without sacrificing too much time waiting.  The more callins you use, the longer they take to come onto the field, so putting every unit in a separate box is a bad idea.  However, pairing units together allows you to replace units quickly enough without the timer getting too long.

The following are important things every company needs: some form of minesweeping(3 minesweeper callin is 3 pop and very cheap and very effective); some form of anti-sniper(3 bikes or your own sniper usually); some form of further indirect fire(I use a nebel in my wehrmacht companies, but many prefer mortars or snipers and a few like stukas); at least 8 total pieces of anti-tank at a bare minimum, preferably 10(this means grens with shreks mixed with paks, panthers, stugs, and upgun pumas, panzerfausts do not count, neither do mines, although if you have a lot, you can subtract a bit); some way to slow down enemy blobs(have a couple of mgs, along with grenades to make them split up, or some ostwinds/p4s/pumas, or some kch, although they are more for terror with 4 men, as they die rather quickly with only 3 men).

Always remember to use cover as much as possible instead of fighting in the open. Understand that allied artillery is a pain, so get used to dodging artillery, usually moving to the side is best, unless  it is a creeping barrage, then towards the arty piece is best.  Always try to have 2 pieces of anti-tank on the field at all times at least, more if the enemy in front of you is vehicle heavy.  However many vehicles you expect, try to have 1 more piece of AT.  1 piece of AT will not beat one vehicle, you need 2, and 3 will beat 2 and so on.  When you use a machine gun, either find a way to prevent flanking of it, or use another machine gun behind it to cover it.

If you want to use an 88, remember that it generally leads to 2 scenarios: Either the enemy will switch to the other side of the map and leave it alone and force you to choose between letting your teammates play a 2v3 and defend it, or abandon it and come help, at which point it will generally be rushed by infantry, OR they will rush the 88 with everything they have, usually right after an artillery blast decrews it.  88s can be highly effective, but are  very situational, and relying on them as your primary AT is not a good idea.  They can shut down enemy vehicle activity without artillery, but if the enemy has artillery, they tend to die rapidly so always have backup plans.  I tend to try to defend mine with as little population as possible while still making it hard to attack.  An MG bunker placed a little behind it, with 4-6 mines around the 88 and a goliath or two around to kill enemy infantry rushing/blow up the 88 if they get it can be very effective.  Also always ensure you have a bike to spot for your 88 so it can use its very long range.

Finally, welcome to EIR, realize that almost all of us lost many many games in the beginning(personally lost like 14 of my first 15 games), and it takes time to adapt.  The important thing is to have fun, which I realize can be hard when you're getting stomped into the ground repeatedly.  But once you get the hang of it, EIR is a lot of fun, which is why many of us keep coming back even after 3+ years.

[SophiaT1991]

Sounds like you try to build around the 88. That is the wrong way to do it, your company should be the main threat, the 88 is just there to help exert your power. The 88 is to support your forces, not the other way around.

You should have a balanced company with several support weapons and upgraded grens, a few tanks for heavy support and the officer to buff whats needing it and to arty any minor stumbling blocks (support weapons huge blobs traige etc)

[Tymathee]

good jesus....can anybody summarize?

[EliteGren]

Bro spam stuhs and double schreck storms

allies gonna be mad

[hans]

text flash

Tankedit: Unrelated pics removed

[terrapinsrock]

Bro spam stuhs and double schreck storms

allies gonna be mad

pr0 advice

[Dnicee]

blablablabla want to throw acid in peoples face! I am a dude trolling on eir forums and think its awesome to pretend to be a chick. How i do this is very simple, i tell them i dont have a mic or any pics at all.

You see, now the cant call my bluff!

yeah so basiclly, dont listen to anything this troll have to say...

[Hicks58]

yeah so basiclly, dont listen to anything this troll have to say...

I could slit kittens throats in my spare time, but that wouldn't make my input any less valid so long as it's backed up or justified.

Tig's Bike advice against Arty? Solid advice for any emplacement-based arty.

Clearing arty before setting up your 88? Yup. Sounds pretty legit too.

Using Upgunned Puma's to hunt down vehicle-based arty? Again, legit. 2-3 Puma's will tear apart any Priest or Calli should you be clever with them.

20mm Puma's against Commandos or as use as AI support for an 88? Yeah, that'll work.

Conclusion is fairly sound too.

So Tig could expand on other concepts too, go into some real depth, but it seems the purpose of the post was to provide some on-the-spot hints. On that premise, the post succeeded.

Apart from seriously obscure personal judgements on AlphaTIG, what grounds do you have for rendering her/his/it's advice void? You don't like what this person does in their spare time? So what? This forum is full of screwed up individuals but if we went judging each other on our own personal standards fuck all would get done and nobody would get help. Shit, if I posted statistics as help for people based upon how much I liked them, it'd be very rare indeed that you'd see me post.

If you don't like what Tig does in her/his/it's spare time, then go make a little crusade about it. Meanwhile, leave gameplay elements out of it.

Or better still, do what I do and don't give a shit about what people do in their spare time.

[Dnicee]

didnt read her post, since the only post ive read from him have been the acid post...

however, since youre on the balance team maybe you can explain for us in the patch notes thread why you keep doing strange things and not fixing some real issues!

[Hicks58]

That's an interesting precedent to set for a supposedly "Nice guy".

I've had nothing to do with this patch, so you can find somebody else to bug on that mark. Maybe you should go bug an actual dev?

[Hicks58]

why you keep doing strange things and not fixing some real issues!

What would you define as a real issue? Just curious, while were on the subject.

[Dnicee]

Like PE, m18 nebel, stuka, jumbo, tiger thats a few things right there.

Nerfing pumas btw? the fuck....?

buffing m10? the fuck?

[Hicks58]

Now take each of those issues, create a thread, and outline exactly what is wrong/right with each of the points you have mentioned.

Then give statistical evidence as to why there is a problem with each of the points you have mentioned.

Once you've done that, comment on the latest patch and why they should/should not have done what they did. Back it up with strong game-play evidence or statistical evidence.

If you can do that whilst keeping emotion out of it, you may even make the BT's life a little easier.

At the very least it gives you something constructive to do and gives you a much better image.

[Dnicee]

okay, here is the deal, i know nothing about the stats, what i know is what i experience when playing...

and im pretty sure someone wrote that they dont even bother anymore what the community says most of the time.

Do i even need to point out some of these issues with a detailed information for you to agree with me that:

stuka need a buff

nebel a buff

PE needs buffs and need their inf to spawn inside the halftrucks again... seems like a big PROBLEM TO ME!

M18 need a nerf?

Pumas do not need a nerf the fuck?

How often do you see a 25 kill puma ingame?

Whats the reason the M10 needs a buff now? cause no one uses them anymore?

Why is that? maybe because the broken M18?

[Hicks58]

okay, here is the deal, i know nothing about the stats, what i know is what i experience when playing...

So, you're providing commentary on an engine that you do not fully understand? You'd intend to balance it purely by gut feeling alone?

Do i even need to point out some of these issues with a detailed information for you to agree with me that:

Yes. Yes you do. If you can't provide detailed information for why it's broken, then you will be left in question as to whether the issue exists in the first place. A worse outcome, is that somebody will use some ass-backwards Nug grade logic and try to convince you that it's actually fine, or requires adjustment when it doesn't - Because you didn't fully outline the problem in the first place and make a firm foundation.

Now, every one of those that you have said need a buff, need a nerf, or asked WTF has this been done for?... Explain what is wrong, then suggest an ideal solution that consists of words other than "buff it".

My tone may be a little harsh on you, but a huge portion of the EiRR community does exactly the same thing that you do, whilst then proceeding to berate the group of people that are trying to make the game better. If you want to understand why the BT take their sweet ass time, understand what it is they have to go through and do.

Arm yourself with knowledge, learn how the game works both as a base and how it shifts through the meta. Once you've done that, and somebody asks you why you've just shouted OP! UP! BUFF! NERF!... You can say something other than "Well just look at it!".

[Dnicee]

ffs, ive been here a couple of years now and im pretty god damn good at this mod aswell. And nooo! its not just a bloody gut feeling. I know what the units cost and what their role is. Thats really enough to see if something is broken or not.

Now can you please tell me which units i stated above you think is fine?

And why the puma will get a nurf and m10 a buff?

Why cant i put my inf in halftrucks?

Why isnt the stuka fixed after 5 years?

why isnt the nebel back to the way it was when it actually did some damage?

Do you really think the M18 is balanced now?

[hans]

dnicee is absolutly right

[Hicks58]

ffs, ive been here a couple of years now and im pretty god damn good at this mod aswell.

Your point being?...

And nooo! its not just a bloody gut feeling. I know what the units cost and what their role is. Thats really enough to see if something is broken or not.

No, it isn't enough. Why? Let's take a single example. Just one. The M18 that you're up in arms about. Cost? 400MP, 320 FU, 12 pop, 15 pool. Role? Heavy AT. Judging by this alone, the M18 is fine. Why? The Firefly does exactly the same job for essentially exactly the same price. Price: 480MP, 320FU, 12 pop, 15 pool. Role: Heavy AT. Both deal the same level of damage simply accomplished in slightly different ways. From your two variables alone, the M18 is currently fine. Are those two variables alone really enough? If not, the only other thing you've shown me to be using is gut feeling and we all know how subjectively pants that is.

Now can you please tell me which units i stated above you think is fine?

Why should I do something that I'm trying to get you to look into with some actual depth? It'd defeat the purpose of what I'm trying to do here if I just go ahead and start listing in detail why any changes were done, and why certain changes haven't been made yet. I've done one little analysis for you, based on your logic alone. Try opening your mind instead of getting me to spoon feed you the answers.

[Dnicee]

except the m18 is also faster then all the axis tanks? can outrun a panther which is 600 mp and 450 fuel and is also a heavy tank with the purpose of being a tank destroyer? And its 14 pop and cost 40 fuel for skirts, 60 mun for repair

M18 also have ambush and mines! (30 mun for repair and can hide while doing it).


Yeah seems fine to me...

will continue after game...