State of Balance

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[tank130]

This is the balance forums gents.

Keep it civil and knock it off with the childish pics. We will not tolerate this kind of bullshit in here.

Dnice gets a balance vacation.
 
Everyone, including Myst, Knock it off with the personal attacks on PQ. All decisions are run through a team of people and then approved by the SDT.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Look, its a fact that Elite armor plus dual shreks are way too powerful as it stands. Its being addressed, if things get overnerfed then another fix can come down the pipeline. But give PQ a fucking break hes actually trying to fully balance out eirr which is a massive undertaking.

We all have our biases and i am sure decisions which we may not necessarily agree with will be made, but while your looking one unit at a time, he is trying to work out the big picture so lets sit back, wait for the big patches, test them out, THEN analyze them.

[RikiRude]

I just don't get why they are over nerfing, it's typical eirr balancing that makes no sense.

taking elite armor off of ALL storms is like people complaining that hvap on pershing is too powerful, so eirr BT logic is take hvap off of everything! it doesnt make sense. no one complains about elite armor storms in any other form other than double schreck.

[puddin]

I just don't get why they are over nerfing, it's typical eirr balancing that makes no sense.

taking elite armor off of ALL storms is like people complaining that hvap on pershing is too powerful, so eirr BT logic is take hvap off of everything! it doesnt make sense. no one complains about elite armor storms in any other form other than double schreck.

Your Logic is so flawed with this one statement.....  " NO ONE complains about elite armor Storms unless its double shrek"  in otherwords, Sotmrs become IMBA once they recieve elete armor Tier 4?  So the base unit is fine... The fuckign doctrine needs to be looked at.

heres what i don;t understand, All Units were balenced while We had NO DOCTRINES, afetr that we were todl no more unit chnages just doctrines... 

So when a doctrine fuckes with a unit balence, you all change the fuckign unit not the Doctrine.... Thats typical fuckign balence in this era...

[pqumsieh]

It's not like they get nothing in the doctrine, storms will still get some love but in other ways.

I'm hoping assault storms will be more viable in the process.

[AmPM]

Assault Storms suck because of the price. 95 + 45 +20mu for 2 MP44 and nade + medkit

And Elite Armor is not the big deal, the thing is people fail to adapt to dual schreks. It used to be double schreks everywhere and no complaints....

[Spartan_Marine88]

heres what i don;t understand, All Units were balenced while We had NO DOCTRINES, afetr that we were todl no more unit chnages just doctrines... 

Thats not remotely true.

The reason doctrines have been so imbalanced and hard to balance is due to the inherent imbalance that was fine for VCOH, but makes EIRR so lopsided at times.

[PonySlaystation]

1. Wrong. RRs have the same accuracy as storms, but enjoy a better scatter rate. Putting some reasonable cover in front of your tank is all you need to completely negate RRs as an efficient combat weapon. To give the same kind of accuracy disadvantage to storms - you need to disallow the storms from getting closer to you than long range, forever. That means keeping a screen of efficient detector units at a range of 20 from your tank, from all sides, forever. Slowing down your tank, and putting the screener unit at risks that would normally be completely negated.

4. So the storms are 20% more likely to not lose a man after they insta-gibbed that tank you had no chance to reasonably defend. Oh dear, that T4 is so totally a gamechanger. The truth of the matter is that any situation in which a regular infantry armour double-shrek storm duo is put to flight/dies - an elite armour stormtrooper duo will see the exact same fate. The armour is a nice, slight bonus for the double-shreks - but it is far from the godlike armour of Odin people seem to assume it is.

Yeah? Cool, then they'll only be twice as popcap-efficient as the next best thing, instead of 2.4 times. Can we see an appropriate rise to 315 mu, so they're only 40% more efficient in muni than the next best thing, rather than the current 50%?

1. Yes, a valid point. But most players that rely heavily on Armor other than Tank Destroyers is either playing Armor Doctrine or Royal Engineers. One of the best units in Armor is the Mark Target Jeeps because they provide excellent scouting and can give +20% accuracy debuff to any target as well as make them visible in FOW, an excellent counter to stormtroopers, place them behind a building and they're safe from paks and should keep any stormtroopers away. Armor also have M8 mines, HE rounds and the Calliope that all make fast work of stormtroopers.

Now of course you could say that those stormtroopers could just waltz up to the calliope and kill it, but moving from one side of the map to the other cloaked would take a very long time, during which that calliope has probably killed all your teammates stuff because your 10 pop worth of units was doing nothing.

Royal Engineers are in a worse boat since they have no effective scout/debuf unit. But the Churchill tanks do have more health. Personally I think the doctrine being way to slow and inadaptable is a larger problem in the first place, a doctrine focused entirely on slow tanks and emplacements is not a good thing.

4. You can defend your tanks from stormtrooper attacks. The same way you should always defend them, by using combined arms. BARs, HMGs, Strafing Run can be used to suppress them, making their escape difficult. Tanks can be used as breakthrough units but most of the time you need scouts, screeners and attacking units infront of them to protect them, no matter what you are facing.

So if the tank is supported, the stormtroopers will have trouble engaging it and getting out alive, thus they will not be able to get in extremely close and fire at close range and Elite Armor will make a difference, because small arms will do a considerably more damage against the stromtroopers. They will not be able to hit with all four Panzerschrecks, but rather 2-3.

RRs have other strengths, you cannot just compare damage. They also don't have a complete doctrine.

[Mysthalin]

Assault Storms suck because of the price. 95 + 45 +20mu for 2 MP44 and nade + medkit

And Elite Armor is not the big deal, the thing is people fail to adapt to dual schreks. It used to be double schreks everywhere and no complaints....

160 mu.. Not really that horrible considering stens alone are 135 mu, but I will agree 95 mu for 2 STGs is too much - and should definitely go down to 80 mu as soon as double shreks are properly nerfed.

Tym proved you wrong on that point last page. Stormshreks have been complained about for the entirety of the 4+ years I've been here - with very short times of quiet inbetween each wave of "nerf the stupid fucking unit already".

Yes, a valid point. But most players that rely heavily on Armor other than Tank Destroyers is either playing Armor Doctrine or Royal Engineers

RCA makes extensive use of two cromwell variants, infantry makes use of the jumbo and the regular sherman, airborne has always traditionally enjoyed the crocodile. Mark target jeeps - although nice, will die very fast if you begin trying to attack with the jeep + sherman combo. Although what you suggest is efficient - when camping, camping does not win games - especially not as an armour-based US player. Everyone has M8 mines bro - but you need to be lucky for the mine to kill anyone in the squad, as opposed to the storms tripping the mine, getting injured and just crawling away with a medikit in their teeth. HE rounds only work if you've managed to survive the initial volley, or by a fluke uncloaked the storms. You will not have done that with your tank - thanks to your 0 detection range - so you must rely on your units running into the storms. Not always as easy as you try to make it out considering the storms can see your units while the units sweep for the storms.

You can defend your tanks from stormtrooper attacks. The same way you should always defend them, by using combined arms. BARs, HMGs, Strafing Run can be used to suppress them, making their escape difficult. Tanks can be used as breakthrough units but most of the time you need scouts, screeners and attacking units infront of them to protect them, no matter what you are facing.

Uuuuuhh.. no? What you are suggesting is playing US as wehrmacht. Facing wehrmacht with tactics that wehrmacht excells at is just bloody stupid. Why would you want to slow down your faster tanks with the slow unwieldliness of the worst HMG in the game - completely forgoing the only strategic advantage your tank has? Why would you want to always screen for your tank with the frail BAR squad, when a single HMG burst from a range you can't even see at will incapacitate the squad?

Even if the storms kill nothing all game - but force you to play in exactly the way the wehrmacht player wants you to play - slow and campy, only to be defeated by superior support weapon attrition - the storms have won the game.


And you miss my main point throughout this entire discussion. I have never said storms are uncounterable and that you can't win against them. I didn't even say they will always excell, even if used by a retard - which is what you seem to assume. I am not asking for tips on how to deal with them, or anything of the like. I know perfectly fine how to deal with them.

My point is that the stormtroopers, for their cost and popcap are way too efficient. Compared directly with the RR - they are 2.4 times more pop, and 1.5 times more cost efficient. That doesn't make them uncounterable - but it makes countering them, on average, way more of a nuissance than their cost or popcap should indicate. Knowing that direct comparisons aren't entirely fair - I only ask for the removal of the double-shrek so the end-result is 1.2 times more pop efficiency, with the cost efficiency remaining at 1.5.

Yet again, if you want to argue with me on this point - stop throwing situational, luck-demanding or strategy-diluting ways of countering storms at me. They're irrelevant to the discussion. Argue on the point that I am making - that storms are way too cheap - both in cost, and in popcap, on what they do. Use stats, not theory-crafting.

[PonySlaystation]

If you're gonna compare RRs and Schrecks you're gonna have to bring in more statistics than damage.

[Scotzmen]

RR values on the left, Shreck values on the right:
Acc
Distant -            0.35 - 0.35
Long -       0.35 - 0.35
Med -       0.6 - 0.75
Short -            1 - 1


Aim
Post_aim Firing time -       0 - 1.25
Post firing cooldown interval    0 - 0.75
Fire aim time:
Max -             0 - 0
min -                     0 - 0
Fire aim time multi:
All distances          1 - 1
Ready aim time:
max                     0 - 0.25
min                     0 - 0.25


Cooldown
Duration
Min -                  0 - 0
Max -          0 - 0
Duration Multiplyer
Distant -               1 - 2
Long -          1 - 2
Med -          0.7 - 1
Short -               0.5 - 0.5

Damage
Max   62.5 - 120
Min   62.5 - 120

Deflection Modifier:   0.15 - 0.15
         

Penetration
Distant -            1 - 1
Long -       1 - 1
Med -       1 - 1
Short -            1 - 1

Range -    35 - 35

Reload
Min -            7 - 7.5
Max -    9 - 8.5

Distance multiplier:
Distant -            1.25 - 1.25
Long -       1.25 - 1.25
Med -       1 - 1
Short -            1 - 1

Scatter:
Angle          15 - 15
Scatter max       15 - 20
Distance scatter Ratio    0.6 - 0.5
FOW angle multi -    2 - 2
FOW distance multi -    2 - 2
Tilt max distance -    10 - 0

[Zamochit]

RR values on the left, Shreck values on the right:

Panzerschrek ftw.

[tank130]

If you're gonna compare RRs and Schrecks you're gonna have to bring in more statistics than damage.

Well..... looking at the stats provided by scotzman, the only (great) significant difference is the damage. And it is a massive difference.

[Tymathee]

bunch of numbers

that really makes RR's seem way subpar to schrecks.

So if i have an AB squad (x2) and a Gren Squad

Damage is 125 vs 120

and price 150 vs 110

makes RR's still seem quite underpriced and since RR's can't be fired on the move, which would take advantage of their AB armor, I dont understand why it costs so much.

Unless you're factoring in fireup.

Last thought. 2 AB squads with RR's, costs more than dual schrecks.

[chefarzt]

that really makes RR's seem way subpar to schrecks.
makes RR's still seem quite underpriced
2 AB squads with RR's, costs more than dual schrecks.
 
 

[AmPM]

that really makes RR's seem way subpar to schrecks.

So if i have an AB squad (x2) and a Gren Squad

Damage is 125 vs 120

and price 150 vs 110

makes RR's still seem quite underpriced and since RR's can't be fired on the move, which would take advantage of their AB armor, I dont understand why it costs so much.

Unless you're factoring in fireup.

Last thought. 2 AB squads with RR's, costs more than dual schrecks.

RR's can hit and run, firing instantly, also prevents vehicle pushing.

The AB unit has Fireup. It can paradrop meaning it always comes in on a set timer.

The ability to use smoke due to low scatter, one of the most powerful abilities in the game, to your advantage.

2 AB squads with RR's is much better than 1 dual schrek squad. Hell, 1 squad might be better depending on what you use with them. AB with smoke is a pain unless you went grenade or flamer heavy.

[tank130]

Why are we comparing two RR squads to one double shrek squad?

[AmPM]

Not sure, but 1 AB squad with RR's can be easily as effective as a double schrek storm, and is much more forgiving.

[Tymathee]

RR's can hit and run, firing instantly, also prevents vehicle pushing.

The AB unit has Fireup. It can paradrop meaning it always comes in on a set timer.

The ability to use smoke due to low scatter, one of the most powerful abilities in the game, to your advantage.

2 AB squads with RR's is much better than 1 dual schrek squad. Hell, 1 squad might be better depending on what you use with them. AB with smoke is a pain unless you went grenade or flamer heavy.

Sure they can hit and run.
Storms can cloak and ambush.

yay fireup, with the negative of a cooldown and exhaustion.
No penalty for using cloak.

I'll give u that on timer, thats very useful and the scatter can be a big issue. You dont have to worry with storms falling on ostwinds, puma's etc that happen to find it.

As for smoke and scatter. did you read what was just posted about the stats, including scatter?

RR vs Schreck
Scatter:
Angle          15 - 15
Scatter max       15 - 20
Distance scatter Ratio    0.6 - 0.5
FOW angle multi -    2 - 2
FOW distance multi -    2 - 2
Tilt max distance -    10 - 0

It was just shown that the scatter for schrecks are very similar to the scatter for RR's, so it's highly likely you can use smoke for schrecks like the way you use it for RR's.

I don't know it for sure but I'm definitely going to try it later and see if anybody without smoke counters whines about Schrecks and smoke.

Why are we comparing two RR squads to one double shrek squad?

Similar pricing, yet for some reason AmPm is talking like RR squads are so epic.

2 RR squads = 300mu - 250 dmg
1 2x schreck = 280mu - 240 dmg

[Smokaz]

Medikit is pretty much required on storms