herpaderp theory crafting and balance issues

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[Dnicee]

You dont need stats to know if something is balanced or not, just play enough games and most people can get a feeling whats right and wrong.

In the current state, allies have the advantage.

Without using any stats I can say this for an example.

M18 that takes down a panther to 30-40% hp is clearly not right.

Why?

Because its faster, cheaper, have mines, ambush and repairs alot faster and can cloak while doing it.

Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Okay then.


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You with your fancy stat boys need to take something more into your calculation. The human part. Maybe its fine in a stand off where no one backs out or use shot blockers.

But that doesnt happen because we use the advantages and our enemies weakness, in this case it would be,

A) take down panther to 50% go back repair and get into action before the panther does.

B) take down panther to 50% back off and then get back in to get some rear shots when/if the panther turns (if there is no at support or sneak by it).

C) use shot blockers, mines and ambush

D) Getting close to die? no problem just back up faster then the panther can go forward, fear of your tank getting hunted while repairing? no problem cloak.

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Now tell me how the more expensive panther can fight the hellcat?

p.s forgot to mention the pop difference.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz8c4WGHIRE&feature=youtu.be

[RikiRude]

i have to agree to some extent, after the panther price increase, nerf to the gun (which i think was fine) and buffs to the m18, the panther feels quite nuetered, even with duel blitz t3s. i find myself taking p4s more and more over panthers now.

[Hicks58]

Except by your logic the Firefly is also OP.

320 Fuel investment that can destroy a Panther single-handedly.

There is only one thing I would change with the Hellcat at the moment and that's it's health. Changing it back to 400 or at least down to 450 would be appropriate.

But for the most part Dnicee, you've got to learn that the Hellcat is a more fragile Firefly which can *move*. You have to learn to treat it differently, using the same old strats that worked against the old Hellcat will no longer work as efficiently, if at all.

That vid you posted is pretty poor evidence. At the Panther's health, an M10 would have took it on with a couple of lucky dice rolls.

Oh, and those fancy stat boys? If they took the human part into the calculations then EiRR balance would be truly fucked as the first difficult to use unit that cropped up would end up uber buffed. Prime example would be a Sniper: In noob hands you'll be lucky to hit 10 kills before it's hunted down, in competent hands you'll regularly get up to 30 kills and expert Sniper users will regularly breach the 40 kill mark.

[tank130]

Using the "Human Factor" to balance rather then stats would be the ultimate in fail. I am really surprised that someone who has played as long as you have would even suggest such a retarded idea........

If we did that, then every time I lost a game, I would cry buff my units. How would you ever decide who's "Human Factor" was the correct factor to balance to.

Dnice are you suggesting  that your "Human Factor" is the scale of balance we should be using?

[jackmccrack]

EIR is played by robots.

[DarkSoldierX]

I do think M18 should get a minor nerf. But in the video posted, I think the m18 should be the one winning considering the HP the panther was at.

I also think Dnicee put up his argument about the "human factor" incorrectly. Maybe he should have wrote "You must consider the mobility of the m18 and the effectiveness of using a pot shot tactic"

p.s. Hicks is right, a lucky m10 could take out that panther.

[tank130]

The only constant that can be used to balance is stats.

When you consider CoH uses a basic "dice roll" function, balancing it any other way would be a crap shoot (pardon the pun)

[Dnicee]

Yes, thank you Darksoldier. Poor choice of words from me.

[PonySlaystation]

The M18 in the video had vet1(Received Damage 0.85), the panther was low on health and you got shot in the rear. I also think the US player had HVAP?

[NightRain]

The M18 in the video had vet1(Received Damage 0.85), the panther was low on health and you got shot in the rear. I also think the US player had HVAP?

Both started around at equal health, panther still had a bit more than the Hellcat but hellcat had vet 1.

None of the shots hit rear armor as there was no "Rear hit" signs coming out.

[Dnicee]

incorrect, no hvap.

[Hicks58]

Both started around at equal health, panther still had a bit more than the Hellcat but hellcat had vet 1.

Not sure which video you were watching, but Panther had 60% health whilst Hellcat had more or less 80%. Combine this with vet 1 and the Hellcat was at a significant advantage.

Also to Pony, rear shots wouldn't have mattered, they do no more damage than frontal shots.

As far as the "Potshot" theory for the Hellcat, the Hellcat has 45 range and the Panther has 47.5. For the Hellcat to be able to dash in, take a shot and then dash out, you'd have to be pretty much coming from the totally opposite angle of which the turret is currently facing at the time. In a nutshell, if this is happening to you enough for it to be a concern then it's probably your own Panther micro that needs improving as well as needing to come to terms with the fact that the Hellcat user in question has some seriously fast micro and flanking ability to be pulling that off.

[Dnicee]

Do you even see the sick amount of damage the m18 does in one shot? The video is so people can see how easy a panther goes down even though it costs more and uses more pop.

It would be intresting to know what spacehamster had for doctrine.

The US one was armor with mid t4.

[Shabtajus]

Lets back in time:

when panthers were roaming on the field, allies QQed (included me)  about it. I think lowering panther acc vs inf was enough since its tank destroyer but u guys at the same time buffed m18 and m10 so in current enviroment u c panther being tripple nerfed.
Now we have tiger who cant win vs m18, m10 or kt which is so shit with so lame acc vs inf and allied atg spam or lv, especially lv spam hurts axis hard now since its so eassy to counter panthers not even talking about p4s or ostwinds. U can call me nub or wutevs u want  or talk about micro or stats all day long i am just talking about experience i get every game

Also funny how u can get 4 upgun jumbos, and no1 sees a problem here...

[RikiRude]

do we know if this was a normal m18 or maybe an usk m18? im sure it wouldnt make too much of a difference, but it's something to consider.

[nikomas]

do we know if this was a normal m18 or maybe an usk m18? im sure it wouldnt make too much of a difference, but it's something to consider.

Yup, USK + Vet 1 = Tough ass cookies

[Hicks58]

Do you even see the sick amount of damage the m18 does in one shot? The video is so people can see how easy a panther goes down even though it costs more and uses more pop.

It would be intresting to know what spacehamster had for doctrine.

The US one was armor with mid t4.

Sick amount of damage?

You mean the damage that the Hellcat AND M10 have always done?

Also, most US tanks tend to be pretty durable with USK/Vet 1.

[nikomas]

For the record...

4 panther shots vs normal M18 = 550dmg
4 panther shots vs USK/Vet1 M18 = 410dmg

Hellcat health 500, it can almost take two additional shots with that combo. ALMOST

[tank130]

For the record...

4 panther shots vs normal M18 = 550dmg
4 panther shots vs USK/Vet1 M18 = 410dmg

Hellcat health 500, it can almost take two additional shots with that combo. ALMOST

BAM!!!

and this folks, is exactly why balance must be determined by using stats, not "human factor".

[Tymathee]

So basically, he was using a tier 4 to make his m18's better, thus allowing them to better tackle a panther, which is what the m18 was boosted to do...oh well, lock thread! no problems here.