[WM] Stuka zu Fuss

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[PonySlaystation]

The dedicated artillery piece of the defensive doctrine, good in vCOH but arguably the worst unit in EIR. Why is there no progress towards making this unit decent?

Reducing the fuel price was not enough.

[Hicks58]

To which I pose the question, what makes the Stuka good in vCoH but junk in EiRR?

[nikomas]

Because if it was better it would make the nebel the worst... Seriously, both do need their buff...

And to be fair, the stuka was only worth it in crappy, spam camp games if I remember right?

[PonySlaystation]

To which I pose the question, what makes the Stuka good in vCoH but junk in EiRR?

Stuka barrages were an effective anti-infantry weapon and the low cooldown with cheap veterancy made it powerful late-game artillery. It both suppressed and reliably killed infantry, something it is not capable at in EIR.

In EIR something is very wrong with this unit. Even if all six rockets hits a single squad it only gets one kill and this is with the +50% increased damage doctrine buff and that's a dream scenario, most rockets don't hit and the few that do don't do any damage.

[Hicks58]

I think it's time for another field test then tbh.

EDIT: 12 Pool? In it's current iteration, that's pricey as hell.

[Mysthalin]

They're only good in vCoH when you get 3-4 of them. You know, same as in EiRR - 3-4 stukas barraging the same place is fucking fearsome. However, in vCoH things like popcap aren't relevant.

[RikiRude]

I used to use these things quite a bit, key word USED.

They HAVE to be in at least pairs to be effective, or try pairing with a nebel, but over all they are super underwhelming. I used them in pairs with officer buff (duel T3) and they simply aren't worth it. At vet 3 with the officer you are looking at like +50% damage, then stacked with +15% damage, +35% damage from the officer, anyways, they are still no good against soft targets, ALTHOUGH if you manage to hit hard targets, you will do a shit ton of damage!

But the problem is soft targets are too small of targets, and hard targets can move too easily to escape the fire. lower pop, lower fuel more, add more splash. all these things would help the stukas, it's just a matter of doing it in little bits.

And agreed nebel needs love too.

[PonySlaystation]

They're only good in vCoH when you get 3-4 of them.

You have no idea. Stukas are basically like 6-rocket firestorms. Having just a single one is immensely useful to take out support weapons and CW infantry blobs.

[Mysthalin]

The only difference between our stuka and the vCoH stuka is that ours has double the penetration versus infantry...

[XIIcorps]

a single stuka HT consistanly gibs my support weapons, just because its not an insta win weapon guys dont mean it needs a buff.
Otherwise we would hear the ever to familar mating calls of the unskilled player, OP UP OP UP OP UP 

[PonySlaystation]

The only difference between our stuka and the vCoH stuka is that ours has double the penetration versus infantry...

That's what people say. But the results ingame are very different.

[Hicks58]

The only difference between our stuka and the vCoH stuka is that ours has double the penetration versus infantry...

Isn't our recharge longer too btw?

[Mysthalin]

Isn't our recharge longer too btw?

Like 30 seconds. Who cares about that though, honestly?

(not to mention that, also, for as long as vet gave coodown buffs to the stuka, at vet 3 vCoH and EiRR Stukas were equal)

That's what people say. But the results ingame are very different.

Fair enough. In other news - Two modifiers do actually exist, and .30 cals with AP rounds counter 88s.

[Hicks58]

Gave them a quick whirl, they CAN do some serious damage but they are hindered by two main points:

1. Pop cost in field is VERY high, it's 8 pool a smack for each of them.

2. They pretty much require 2 of them in field to have consistent efficiency. This means 16 pop soaked up by Stuka's making early game deployment a death wish, whilst deploying them late game can be too late.

They are pretty effective at taking out support weapons and messing up already damaged tanks though. Direct hits on vehicles do nasty damage and are particularly good at finishing off enemy tanks trying to back away with a little predictive firing.

Hotchkiss Stuka's end up taking the same amount of pop, but it isn't felt nearly as bad because they can still operate with their main gun.

I'd personally recommend a pop/pool decrease and leave it at that (Pool because at 12 a pop it becomes VERY pricey).

EDIT: Oh and Myst, for the context of EiRR, 90 second recharge is significantly better than 120 second recharge, especially on a pop intensive platform which can't do anything but fire rockets and leg it.

[PonySlaystation]

Here are my suggestions.

Reduce the pop to 5 from 8.
Reduce the barrage cooldown to 90s from 120s.
Reduce the pool to 8 from 12.

Either that or severely increased damage against infantry targets and lowered cooldown.

[RikiRude]

Here are my suggestions.

Reduce the pop to 5 from 8.
Reduce the barrage cooldown to 90s from 120s.
Reduce the pool to 8 from 12.

Either that or severely increased damage against infantry targets and lowered cooldown.

i feel 5 would be way too little, because then we would fight gork or myst fielding 5 of these with their opening call in. I think 6 pop is the sweet spot, I think nebel could be reduced to 60 pop as well. Pool cost should come down as well, though I wonder is 90 sec cool down would be just a bit too much of a buff.

[PonySlaystation]

Before you write in this thread. Log in to EIR, create a defensive company and use the stuka. You'll see that it basically does less damage than a smoke screen. Giving it +300% damage would only be a small buff to this unit because that's how terrible it is. A bike could potentially kill more units and this is supposed to be the dedicated Wehrmacht artillery unlock. It's supposed to be in line with the Hummel, Priest and 105. It's weakness is supposed to be that's it's a halftrack and thus have low health. But the barrage is not supposed to bounce off units !!

It needs some serious buffs, not just super small changes. Give it a billion more damage and then we can nerf it from there. At least then it can become more than a peashooter.

[Hicks58]

It amazes me how quickly Pony can go from speaking a fair degree of sense to blatantly talking out of his arse.

The damage of the Stuka is fine. When a rocket hits, it deals significant damage.

The ONLY changes that the Stuka requires are 8 pop down to 6 and 12 pool down to 9.

The Stuka is NOT on par with the Hummel, Priest or even the 105. Each of those are heavy artillery, the Stuka is medium artillery.

FYI, I've used the Stuka today, and done so twice. It sucks up a shit ton of pop to keep it in field, but it DOES give results when it hits a target. The only problem is like I said, having so much pop sitting around doing shit all.

[PonySlaystation]

It doesn't give any results. I fired 5 barrages with 2 stukas with +50% damage buff and they only got a total of 5 kills and I was firing on an immobile blob of infantry. Meanwhile the Calliope gets 5 kills in a single barrage. The only reason I got any kills at all was because I slowly carved into their health until they were at the point of dying.

The performance of this unit is unacceptable. Reducing pop to 6 is not enough, it needs lower cooldown as well.

Also you shouldn't require a T3 to make an artillery piece useful but even with the extra 50% damage it just bounces off infantry. It also needs a damage buff.

[Hicks58]

A damage buff?

It does 100-120 damage per rocket, that's 150-180 damage per rocket with the T3. Two direct hits will destroy an ATG outright.

You want it to do MORE?

This thing wrecks support weapons, vehicles and tanks. In the short time I used them for two games I finished off at least 4-5 tanks with them. Granted, the Infantry damage is lacklustre but it's made up with volume of rockets.

There is 0.25 damage vs infantry in the target tables, that's 37.5 - 45 damage per rocket against infantry with the T3. Through damage alone, two direct hits will kill any Allied infantry, if you suppress the squad(s) in question and close the distance a little rather than firing at max range, the rockets WILL rack up kills. Against support weapons though, Stuka's deal their damage in a different way. Instead of decrewing them on the spot like other artillery, they deal significant damage to the weapon itself. This is not noticed immediately, but it certainly weakens the enemy when they find they've nothing to recrew in the long run.

The only issue is actually fielding this piece and keeping it around long enough for it's effect to be noticed. 16 Pop is required for immediate effects to be noticed, which is far too much to be sat on it's arse.

Last note: This thing has a 5% critical chance to kill an infantryman at full health, and has a full 100% chance to kill infantry in yellow health. This means that direct hits can kill riflemen instantly as it can push their health into the yellow health barrier and deal the kill crit.