Superior Map Design

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[tank130]

I know this is going to sound a little bitter..... but I am a little pissed off and feel a little mislead.
This is not the first time this point has been brought up, but it is the first time it has been brought up to represent a superiority type thingy....

I received a PM today:

1- For the map feedback stuff you are doing now. We have some people in the dev team who know a lot about mapping and map design. unknown, Leo and skaffa specifically(altho skaffa is inactive atm) but the other dev members have a lot of experience with EIR itself too. If you contact any of them directly they might be more motivated to provide map feedback, while at the same time the feedback will be of higher quality, more streamlined thus more understandable and easier to work with across different maps and heck some dev members might be even bored and will get more motivated for EIR.

Disclaimer: mild editing to ensure the anonymity of the sender

I am very open to getting map feedback from any individual who has played on the map being discussed. What really irks me with this post is the suggestion that Skaffa is superior in his map design skills.

Lets take a look at a couple of screen shot here:

Here is a good old CoH, 2v2 map - Semois



Here is that same map with the water removed:



Here is the most played map in Eirr, designed by the implied master of map design - Skaffa



Of course, we all recognize that last image as Nueville. And we all know that every one stamps a bit of map here and there.
But no matter how you look at it, describe it, or analise it, that is an awesome map and just freaken awesome to play on.

But - how the hell could anyone claim Skaffa is superior in map design and that we should all ask his advice on how to map. What advice would I be asking for? I think I can get the same answers from Deadbolt to be fucking honest.

I am not criticizing skaffa and I am not criticizing the map. I just want people to stop suggesting Skaffa is the king of map knowledge and no map is worthy unless he designed it or gave it his blessing.

[Smokaz]

He played us like a piano!

Nah but it's hard to create something entirely new at high quality which you can sell to the unwashed masses.

Everyone who actually played this map in vcoh knew neuville was a waterless semois, but its sometimes better to let people preach on their soap (like wind) than to pop their bubble.

We're suppose to be friends here, aiiiiiiight?

[tank130]

Very important to READ my thread completely before posting here.

I was very careful to make sure I made it clear I have nothing against Skaffa, or the map.

I am pissed at the other people who claim he is the best map designer and you should always ask him for advice when making a map.

[Smokaz]

We should find the guy who made semois and hire him!

[nikomas]

We should find the guy who made semois and hire him!

You sure about that? He thought all that water was such a good idea... 

On a side note, did skaffa make any map from scratch that's currently in the rotation?

[tank130]

On a side note, did skaffa make any map from scratch that's currently in the rotation?

Not sure. He made forest, not sure if that is a stamp or not

[PonySlaystation]

But - how the hell could anyone claim Skaffa is superior in map design

Because his maps has a good proportion between buildings, cover, open fields and roads and also space on the sides of the map to allow for flanking.

These are criteria older 3v3 maps distinctively lack. This doesn't make them unplayable but they tend to cater to specific companies or playstyles as well as slow down the flow of gameplay.

I take Bocage as an obvious example of a map that favors artillery. This doesn't make it unplayable, it's still a good map. But if the enemy has artillery, it will be more powerful and difficult to counter than on Neuville.

Older maps tend to be simplistic or realistic. Neuville is all about the gameplay.

[tank130]

Because his maps has a good proportion between buildings, cover, open fields and roads and also space on the sides of the map to allow for flanking.

These are criteria older 3v3 maps distinctively lack. This doesn't make them unplayable but they tend to cater to specific companies or playstyles as well as slow down the flow of gameplay.

I take Bocage as an obvious example of a map that favors artillery. This doesn't make it unplayable, it's still a good map. But if the enemy has artillery, it will be more powerful and difficult to counter than on Neuville.

Older maps tend to be simplistic or realistic. Neuville is all about the gameplay.

Pony, you have just proven you do not read, or you do not comprehend what you read.....

Skaffa does not have a map. He just removed the water from Semois. Look at the pics dude......LOL

[PonySlaystation]

He still added significant areas to the map using this formula. Semois without the water would still be unplayable. So his input is still very much excellent.

He also made Forest from scratch, which is an even better map.

[nikomas]

Uhhh, I've heard more than once that the base of forest is basically another certain popular map rotated 90 degrees, Heard that one several times to

[shockcoil]

Semois is a 1v1 map. Just sayin

[nikomas]

Semois is a 1v1 map. Just sayin

Your comment is completely irrelevant and most people already knew that, just sayin' (you dick)

[tank130]

He still added significant areas to the map using this formula. .................

Ummmmm, Pony, are you high?





One of these maps is Semois with the water turned off, the other map is Neuville. Could you point out one of the 'significant areas' you are referring to?

[PonySlaystation]

I'm talking about these areas of the map. Half of the map is essentially his own work.

[tank130]

I'm talking about these areas of the map. Half of the map is essentially his own work.

ROFLMAO..........

[Masacree]

Tank, have you ever made a map from scratch?

[aeroblade56]

Tank, have you ever scratched a map?.

[Unkn0wn]

I'm talking about these areas of the map. Half of the map is essentially his own work.

Stop trolling

Tank is essentially right in his assessment that Skaffa isn't exactly the ultimate map guru like some people are making him out to be, though I honestly don't think making a thread about all this was really necessary . Stamping (large) parts of maps is an acceptable process for novice mappers that are either unable or unwilling to design a map from scratch, the mark of a true and quality mapper however is indeed that he can create multiple maps from scratch, all of equal high quality and all attaining equally high popularity. OMG's Spartan is a good example of this in my opinion and arguably one of the few mappers in the (former) EIR/OMG that can truly be called a leading example.

I honestly don't care that neuville is essentially semois, even a 5-year old could have successfully made a conversion the way skaffa did. What matters though is that he ended up doing it at least and gave the community another fun map to play. Deadbolt also just stamps entire maps, no one will claim he is a good mapper but none the less I greatly value some of his contributions. (And the simple fact that he is putting time in providing us with new maps) I don't know if skaffa truly made forest from scratch, if he did then kudos for that is indeed an excellent map as well. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a map expert either, someone who has only made three maps of which the 2 popular ones only one is really made by him can't really be considered a map expert just yet.

/thread

[EliteGren]

Your comment is completely irrelevant and most people already knew that, just sayin' (you dick)

He wasn't just randomly saying Semois is a 1v1 map rofl. He pointed out tanks mistake, dumbo, which makes it completely relevant.

[nikomas]

He wasn't just randomly saying Semois is a 1v1 map rofl. He pointed out tanks mistake, dumbo, which makes it completely relevant.

Tanks mistake was completely irrelevant, most of us know it's a 1v1 map, but it doesn't really matter for this discussion so why bring it up? Clearly, only to be a dick about it.