Comet

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[XIIcorps]

Give Comet flank speed,
K thanks bye.

Why does the sodding SP get a speed boost and the flagship of British tanks dont get any love ?

Give comet flankspeed slightly less then Cromwell flankspeed.

DO IT DO IT DO IT.

[NightRain]

The most important question is.


Why should Comet have a speed boost?

[Hicks58]

More importantly, Flank Speed for the SP is getting kicked in the nuts.

Also, Cromwells have Flank Speed cause they can't do shit to the front of anything with PIV armour or above lol. That and it lets them catch LV's, which is pretty much the only armoured target they can competently engage from any angle.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Comet is the best tank in the game after JP.

The idea of giving it flank speed is a perfect post for April 1st.

Well done you mischievous gnat.

[XIIcorps]

yeh instead of the 2x boost or what ever it gives i was thinking 1.5x boost enough for it to run when it needs to.
because its gun just does not feel like a 17pdr.
i know its supposed to be panther gun or something but its far from believeible.

[Hicks58]

The Comet gun is quite a mish-mash of numerous Allied weaponry.

M10 damage
Pershing penetration table
Sherman splash
Unique infantry accuracy (0.65)
Pershing reload
Sherman-M10 range depending on CCT presence

Most guns tick excellent in some boxes and poor in others. What the Comet does is tick good in every box. Even it's chassis with Panther health, Sherman armour and Cromwell mobility does the same.

It totally blurs the line between a medium and a heavy tank.

[nikomas]

That sounds like you're describing a panther pre-AI nerf 

[Hicks58]

Except a Panther has much better armour, doesn't have the splash radius of a Sherman, has an overall better penetration table, etc, etc.

[nikomas]

Except a Panther has much better armour, doesn't have the splash radius of a Sherman, has an overall better penetration table, etc, etc.

Yeah, the panther used to, well, "totally blur the line between a medium and a heavy tank.". It was just better at it

[DarkSoldierX]

Also, Cromwells have Flank Speed cause they can't do shit to the front of anything with PIV armour or above lol. That and it lets them catch LV's, which is pretty much the only armoured target they can competently engage from any angle.

Well said.

Comet used to be the best tank anyway before its greatly needed nerf. Before it was crazy good and you could stack like 10 differnt modifiers on it. I used to have a little file that showed all the crazy buffs that it had.

[nikomas]

Eh, I'm honestly rather iffy about even the crom having flank speed in some regards, it's probably the most survivable tank in the game with that ability. And while the AT gun is questionable at best it's likely the best AI medium tank in the game. The P4 and Sherman look at the crom and go "aawwww I wish I could slaughter inf like that"

And the only think the p4 beats is like the unupgun shermie and crom anyway, haha

[Hicks58]

And the only think the WM medium armour beats is like 66% of Allied medium armour anyway, haha

[nikomas]

And the only think the WM medium armour beats is like 66% of Allied medium armour anyway, haha

Yeah, that'd be valid if the actual gameplay ratio worked like that, but unupgunned shremans are few and far between and even then the damage they do to each-other is very, well, negligible.

What I was saying was that the crom fills the medium armor role the best, kicks lv's in the shin and rapes infartry, giving up the ability to take on one single medium tank is a trade I'd make for any and all medium tanks.

The only reason I'd get the upgun on a sherman is because there is no real difference to it's AI capability, and it's very, very rare you actually get to put the P4's better AP ability to use, in a vast majority of engagements shermans/PzIV's end up against targets they are not really worth much more than the crom against. The crom however can gtfo with gusto.
People hardly buy medium tanks for their AT ability after all, not when you can get tank destroyers or panthers to fill that bill. You buy them because it's the only proper AI tank the allies have and the ost gets hardcore raped by zooks. In my opinion anyway. The crom is also Way, WAY more adept at dealing with ATG's than the other two medium tanks.

[Hicks58]

Top mounted MG's bridge that gap for AI effectiveness whilst retaining their inherent AT ability.

Not only that... Upgunned Shermans are capable of competently taking on StuG's/StuH's and Hetzers as well as PIV's. The increase penetration vs heavy armour allows them to finish off 30%-40% health Panthers or Tigers with a little luck... Something that a Cromwell or 75mm Sherman could not. You could try your ass off and end up getting raped from full health if you tried it with a 75mm Sherman or Cromwell due to piss penetration rates.

I'd sooner take a 75mm Sherman with .50cal over a Cromwell, purely for the armour and more consistent performance (Missing with the main gun is made up for with the .50cal vs infantry)

Then again, I want my medium armour to engage targets. Not run away from them.

[nikomas]

Remind me how effective that 50. or top MG42 is at long range? Because that's the only range the main guns are really liable to miss at.


And speaking of a little luck, you could also hit flank speed on the crom and hit a tiger in the ass "with a little luck" as you put it. If there is no room to chase down a tiger to hit in the ass then it is highly unlikely the Sherman could do the same, as it would have to be pretty damn close for that luck to strike home. The sherman is to slow to chase down a panther to begin with, while the crom could again hit overdrive and nail it in the ass where it does roughly 85-90% to pen even at long. Even with the upgun the sherman only rocks about a 28% on panther and 35% on tiger to pen from long and with the high health of both tigers and panthers you'll need at least 3 hits to finish of a "30% health" one, it's not going to happen if he puts a panther into full retreat or has the tigers retreat covered.

The unupgunned Sherman and Crom basically share their penetration tables and only differ by 0.0x's.

In terms of armor, the Sherman is still just as toast in most engagements as the Crom is, take some of the main guns without doctrines involved...

Tiger - 83% LongPen for sherman, Crom is a 100%... But, the tiger gets a -20% accuracy on the crom so it pretty much makes up for it over long range were scatter can take effect.

Panther - Over 100% to penetrate both tanks. The crom again has a -20% received accuracy effectively making it the more survivable tank against panther shots at long range. The only match-up were an Upgun Sherman would shine over the crom is against P4's. Before we bring up the PAK, no competent crom user would ever let a pak get more than one shot off at him, that's what you have overdrive for.

You've also got to keep in mind that the crom is a much better tank to fight PE with, it's speed lets it fend of clowncars and flank marders with greater success than a sherman would ever have. And it can also handily defeat an IST. PE really has nothing that a Sherman could fight better than a Cromwell as far as I recall.


If we are bringing up-guns into the mix one has to account for a CCT as well, vetting them is easy and you can reduce your reload on the crom by a significant margin and also granting you some extra range. This is on top of the greater splash the crom rolls and 4.5 - 6s reload timer advantage over the 6s standard the Sherman uses. Not to mention that if you've got a vet 2 one you can actually kite a P4.


The sherman certainly is better if you are facing P4's, but pretty much only if you're facing P4's and only if you're upgunned. The unupgunned Sherman has pretty much nothing on a cromwell. In terms of AI DPS the crom fires slightly faster and it's overdrive ability makes it a much more combat capable and multirole than an unupgunned sherman is. If an upgun is bought a CCT can then be added to further increase the cannon DPS (CCT's even out with upguns due to them being bought for more than one tank per go, actually cheaper when looked at that way). On top of being a better tank to face pretty much the entire PE arsenal.


As a final note Shrecks take a -7% accuracy against croms, so that helps balance out the very, very slight chance a shreck would fail to penetrate a Sherman (about 10%).



Edit.

Shermie > Hetzer is a 50/50 to pen IF upgunned, with a -15% accuarcy to boot, unless a god intervenes it would not be a good idea to match a sherman up against a hetzer.

As for Stug? That again is a 50/50 to pen at long but with the stugs damage modifiers against shermans and given the cost difference this is like above matchup not a good idea unless it's some last ditch desperation deal.

And you know what they both share? The think that makes the Crom pretty lovely against the Marder, the fact that you can flank speed both of them if you've setup the field to do so. Not that you always can but hey, most of the time a sherman will get shat on if it tries to headbut with those two. Ass shots from the crom to both the hetz and stug are 100% pens even at long by the way, sure they are the same for the sherman I'd bet, but the sherman is not nearly as good at that.

In fact, I'd argue the fact that Sherman take 50% more damage and the crom takes 20% less received accuracy, on top of the speed makes it a better contended to fight a stug. On the other hand sir.hetzer only does standard damage so the sherman might actually be a better off in that regard. Then again, with the hetzer rocking 50 range a sherman could find itself kited mighty quick. Not saying a crom would really do that much better, however I don't see the sherman doing particularly well either and the crom is likely to end up taking less shells.

[Hicks58]

Niko ignores cover.

Niko ignores other pointed out targets of StuG, StuH and Hetzer.

Niko ignores half the other AT based weapons which Sherman armour helps with.

Niko thinks that a 40 FU upgrade is on par with an entire unit complete with MP, MU, FU and pop cost.

Niko generally just outright ignores that which doesn't fit with his painted picture. AKA fact-picking to what works for him, not taking in all facts.

Hicks walks away from the thread.

G'day and g'night.

[nikomas]

Niko ignores cover.

Niko ignores other pointed out targets of StuG, StuH and Hetzer.

Niko ignores half the other AT based weapons which Sherman armour helps with.

Niko thinks that a 40 FU upgrade is on par with an entire unit complete with MP, MU, FU and pop cost.

Niko generally just outright ignores that which doesn't fit with his painted picture. AKA fact-picking to what works for him, not taking in all facts.

Hicks walks away from the thread.

G'day and g'night.

Hicks seems to imply cover affects the Sherman and Cromwell disproportionately.

Hicks implies the Sherman is "better" at dealing with low health tanks, ignoring flank speed.

Hicks tries to imply that weapons that end up pretty similar to ones already covered would make the whole thing different. Like what, LV's? How often is a pack of LV's really shooting you from long range anyway? Fair enough I guess, it'll take less damage from a puma.

Hicks ignores ass Armour.

Hicks fails to account for scale. Given only 1 cct is required when you'll need 1 upgun per tank, 1 cct is cheaper than 4-5 upguns.

Hicks makes accusations of fact picking whilst himself focusing all of his points in head to head slug combat, something the crom is not supposed to do at all.




I'm sorry, but I'm hardly the only one that sounds like they have some sort of painted picture here.

[XIIcorps]

Every thread I make, off de rails.

Fook me lads if you want to have such a heated debate pm eachother.

[TheWindCriesMary]

To be fair you made a thread advocating a buff for the comet: easily the beastliest, sexiest and most ridiculously effective tank for its cost in the game second only to the Jagpanther. If they were twice as expensive I'd still buy them and cherish them forever. Spending RP's on anything else... except maybe the bofortrololz HT is insanity.

People only had one way to deal with their incredulity at your topic's premise: going off the rails.

[XIIcorps]

I fail to see to correlation between my "drunken" rant about comet being slow and the now heated debate about Cromwell vs Sherman effectiveness.

But so be it.