Flak 88

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[TheIcelandicManiac]

Well you guys could break the 88 by giving it the ability to redeploy and then fix what you broke by giving inf doc assult rifles back, Just saying.

[Hicks58]

Also, you say in the 88 poll thread that area denial does not fit EiRR.

So, barbed wire, tank traps, mines, and demolition charges all do not fit EiRR? Because that's what they do, they deny areas from your enemy, some of them in a direct way yet others in more subtle ways.

[Spartan_Marine88]

you forgot mines, road blocks bunkers, and machine guns and even sand bags

[hans]

You kill the range, you kill the uniqueness of the unit... Again, it becomes a glorified ATG.

not at all, just reducing it a bit. 88 is an atg, no matter what

In EiRR's current environment, it's used to lock down an area to make attacking it difficult, or to force your opponent into a different section of the map.

Lock down areas is still possible with a mobile 88. Give it a fair setup and redeploy timer. It adds sth instead of destroying sth. It stays unique, dont tell me that it doesnt!

The 88 will slow down gameplay against people who have little idea how to counter it - A mobile 88 would do the exact same thing, or worse, it'd lead to such people getting outright crushed by a creeping 88 advance.

It serves a function, and it serves it's function well. Why are you trying to fix something that isn't broken?

if u are unable to stop the construction of an 88, u also fail in breaking an 88 position. You only higher the amount of time the 88 gets deployed. Is any good player using an 88? no, i guess not. I does not really add sth rather being a unit that is useless against good players/competent ones.

[hans]

Also, you say in the 88 poll thread that area denial does not fit EiRR.

So, barbed wire, tank traps, mines, and demolition charges all do not fit EiRR? Because that's what they do, they deny areas from your enemy, some of them in a direct way yet others in more subtle ways.

but u know that barbed wire and such do deny area, but they are no reason to avoid an area completely. mines are easy detected with sweepers, barbed wire can be crushed by every vehicle, and road blocks are a different story. i hate road blocks personnally, they do destroy fast paced environment as well.

they all deserve a certain function, but they dont really deny area for a competent player (okay road blocks are stupid ). Once u have placed a mine, u dont focus gameplay for 20 min on a different side. the effects are completely different.

[Spartan_Marine88]

they all deserve a certain function, but they dont really deny area for a competent player

Seems you just answered your 88 question all by yourself

[Hicks58]

You don't see good players using 88's because they are busy using the shit out of Terror. Why bother with the 88 when you can just take the direct approach?

With 100 Range and 225 damage, you cannot make an 88 mobile in EiRR. It won't happen, it'll just break the unit. So you reduce the range and damage? Pointless. a Pak43 would consistently be a better choice.

It won't be unique anymore. It'll just be a sturdy ATG that takes a long time to set up with a lot of risks involved.

As for mines, they don't deny an area for 20 minutes... They stop LV rushes cold. That's a massive effect. Barbed wire requires that armour be relocated away from the fight to crush it so you can continue back capping, and tank traps require some heavy vehicles to be called on specifically to get rid of it. It's all aimed around pushing your enemy where you ideally want them to be with clever placement.

Same thing applies for an 88, you've got to take into account exposure to the enemy, how well the kill zones are set up, how well you can minimize risks to yourself and teammates if it gets captured... 88's that get blown up instantly are the ones placed by people who've put little thought into what they are doing with it. But you let them relocate? Oh, you put it in a bad position?... Just let me pack that up. Seriously, dealing with a badly placed 88 can make for interesting games on either side, as well as dealing with well placed ones. Make them mobile and you'll lose that.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Heard you had an 88 problem



might be i have an answer




hmm, nope that would be foolish

[hans]

You don't see good players using 88's because they are busy using the shit out of Terror. Why bother with the 88 when you can just take the direct approach?

With 100 Range and 225 damage, you cannot make an 88 mobile in EiRR. It won't happen, it'll just break the unit. So you reduce the range and damage? Pointless. a Pak43 would consistently be a better choice.

let it be 75 range and 180 damage, why not, therefore its mobile. i would do it. A pak43? no actually not. Its too clumsy. I would love to be able to decide about mobile firepower or slow once.

It won't be unique anymore. It'll just be a sturdy ATG that takes a long time to set up with a lot of risks involved.

theres always a way to handle this and especially the balance team should have the mind to balance the unit that will be born. Balance the risk and advantages and then i dont see any issue with the idea. U talk about issues, that u can solved easily. A mobile 88 is unique, still. It stays an 88 with its advantages, but its mobile. Otherwise the 88 itself wouldnt be unique either.

As for mines, they don't deny an area for 20 minutes... They stop LV rushes cold. That's a massive effect. Barbed wire requires that armour be relocated away from the fight to crush it so you can continue back capping, and tank traps require some heavy vehicles to be called on specifically to get rid of it. It's all aimed around pushing your enemy where you ideally want them to be with clever placement.

i said: "Once u have placed a mine, u dont focus gameplay for 20 min on a different side", therefore u agree that it doesnt really denies the area. They do have a good function though i can t deny.

Same thing applies for an 88, you've got to take into account exposure to the enemy, how well the kill zones are set up, how well you can minimize risks to yourself and teammates if it gets captured... 88's that get blown up instantly are the ones placed by people who've put little thought into what they are doing with it. But you let them relocate? Oh, you put it in a bad position?... Just let me pack that up. Seriously, dealing with a badly placed 88 can make for interesting games on either side, as well as dealing with well placed ones. Make them mobile and you'll lose that.

it gives variation. put it in a tier 4 as i suggested. u have both ways (static and mobile 88), with the same effect/advantages and disadvantages if its balanced correct.

[hans]

Heard you had an 88 problem


might be i have an answer


hmm, nope that would be foolish

never said that i have an 88 problem. i fight for an idea to bring variety on the battlefield. maybe u read carefully before posting this useless crap?

[Hicks58]

If EiRR were focused around the concept of mobile defensive structures, I'd happily explore the possibility of a mobile 88.

But EiRR is not focused around that kind of gameplay, and frankly support weapon creeps make for some of the most dull games ever played - Even 88 games turn out better than support creeps.

Simply put, so long as EiRR holds it's current gameplay style, mobile 88's will not happen. Unless you make them seriously gimped (And only ONE doctrine gives a negative to it - HVAP, and it's nothing nearly as much as would be needed as a mobile 88) the idea of a mobile 88 just will not fly. I'd much rather see them static and awesome than mobile and a mere shadow of what they should be.

[hans]

If EiRR were focused around the concept of mobile defensive structures, I'd happily explore the possibility of a mobile 88.

But EiRR is not focused around that kind of gameplay, and frankly support weapon creeps make for some of the most dull games ever played - Even 88 games turn out better than support creeps.

Simply put, so long as EiRR holds it's current gameplay style, mobile 88's will not happen. Unless you make them seriously gimped (And only ONE doctrine gives a negative to it - HVAP, and it's nothing nearly as much as would be needed as a mobile 88) the idea of a mobile 88 just will not fly. I'd much rather see them static and awesome than mobile and a mere shadow of what they should be.

the discussion between two persons with different opinions will last long and wont produce sth usefull.
I have a fair idea and think that it has been deserved to be discussed in the balance team. Would u be so kind to post this idea as a suggestion to be discussed in the balance team?

thx in advance

[Hicks58]

Yeah, I'll get right on that.

[ick312]

well, a moveable 88 wouldnt break the game. High risk high reward => perfect t4


you dont see the usage of an 88 because, its to fragile. Since the nerf of the def doc is their stuff not anymore competetive.


good players go for terror doc, because its the only one which is not complet helpless against op allied shit.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Are people really that bad that they dont know how to use dual bundle stormtroopers?

[NightRain]

88s only weakness are the maps of eirr. Its effectiveness is determinded what map you are playing on.

[TheWindCriesMary]

88's are very well balanced at the moment.

[Tymathee]

88 should have a flak mode and an AT mode, in flak mode it has a burst so it can splash vs infantry, damage some light vehicles and has a higher accuracy vs anything in the air

in AT mode, its good vs everything but has no splash so you have to get a direct hit, including air target sso it gets lower accuracy and it has a 5-10 second reload in between switching weapons.

[clonetroopers]

88 should have a flak mode and an AT mode, in flak mode it has a burst so it can splash vs infantry, damage some light vehicles and has a higher accuracy vs anything in the air

in AT mode, its good vs everything but has no splash so you have to get a direct hit, including air target sso it gets lower accuracy and it has a 5-10 second reload in between switching weapons.

agreed

[NightRain]

88 is already capable to carry its own weight in the game. It ain't mean to do anything more but support your troops with long range AT.