Working up to a flaw with wehr hand based at?

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[Smokaz]

- No nondoctrinal moving cloak
- no nondoctrinal double shreks
- faust price/use nerf
- no nondoctrinal double mines

with doctrines:
- no buff for shrek/pak penetration?
- introduction of a hell of a lot of strong allied armor (jumbo, ablative etc)
- a lot of infantry supress/crush armor combinations make using infantry for AT less viable
- paks seem more vulnerable than ever to new doctrine stuff
- losing at gun snipe contest vs 6 pounder

im just wondering if anyone else find it hard to contend just using manpacked at. I dont seem to have the same problem with allied companies, where the supplementing AT also feels easier to use (m10/m18 vs stug/panther)

[XIIcorps]

Firstly ablative does nothing to reduce pen it only adds hp( which I think is lost when even if you repair )

And secondly axis get the most powerful hand held at weapon in game.
The panzerschreck penetrates everything reliably front and rear side to side.

Also using an atg in this case a pak to fight another atg is just poor play.

Wher isn't designed to use just man packed at that's why you get paks and stugs.

And as for the allied armor, axis get maus and Jt both which can gib atgs.

[NightRain]

Firstly ablative does nothing to reduce pen it only adds hp( which I think is lost when even if you repair )

And secondly axis get the most powerful hand held at weapon in game.

Second most powerful and it competes with PIAT. The best one is RR. It has the lowest scatter and the highest penetration making it hit nearly every single time and penetrate majority of the time thus it can be used from long range.

I'd put Schreck second even if PIAT is trying to hug the second spot. PIAT often hits rear armor due to its arc so it often penetrates that is if it hits which is why it is second place.

[Hicks58]

Shreck does 150 damage per round and has consistently high penetration against everything but Pershing and Churchill armour (That the Allies possess). The only other exception would be Panther Skirted armour, but hey, the Jumbo's accepted to be pretty nuts. Should really give the Jumbo a health buff and Churchill armour to make it consistently good against HHAT and let tanks rip through it properly, but that's another discussion in itself...

As for you though Smokaz, the problem lies in that you're trying to use supplementary AT as mainline AT. It'd be like trying to take on Panthers with Stuarts, sure it can work on paper, but you'd be much better off just using a hard AT piece + a Stuart to keep the Panther where you want it.

[aeroblade56]

It'd be like trying to take on Panthers with Stuarts, sure it can work on paper.

Son, whatever paper your using i want.

[Hicks58]

It'd require a few buckets of theory crafting and at least 3 of them, but it can theoretically happen.

It's like Shrecks. Theoretically speaking, if you get every circumstance in your favour, you can use them as mainline AT. But you probably wont, and it'll probably hurt like hell to try it.

[Mysthalin]

Smokaz - double shrek storms need to gtfo in the first place - and you're complaining wehr doesn't have access to them non-doctrinally. Really?

Mines are ridiculously efficient as is, especially since you also get goliaths on the same pioneer squad. Which can go back-cap. And plop down a 5 muni bunker and hold 2 sectors by being inside it. For 3 popcap (including the 5-mun bunker)

Fausts? They're fine. I still use them all the time and they're my preferred method of supplementary AT. If I could somehow get them on grenadiers i'd be laughing.

That being said:


I don't see why certain doctrines couldn't get pen buffs to shreks/paks. Perhaps one of the defensive T4s could field a buff to pak38 penetration. Terror shreks could probably use a pen boost much like AB get a pen boost to RRs as a T2.

Jumbo is lulz flat out. Is what happens when you do cross-factional armour and then don't standardise it properly.

Crushination is funny, but I see what you mean. Why not add a 15-20% chance for fausts to engine damage at green health? Small enough to be rare, but often enough to make people think twice before charging an M10 at a KCH/volks blob, much like axis think twice before plowing into a blob of rifles with their StuGs.

The pak should pretty much always beat a 6-pdr in a shoot-out. It fires faster, they have the same accuracy against each other. Sure, it deals less damage - but the fire-rate more than makes up for it.

[CrazyWR]

this thread amuses me.  Good jokes smoky

[hans]

this topic lol

[tankmaster23]

 who do you think you are allies?

[I2ay]

The panzerschreck penetrates everything reliably front and rear side to side.

It doesn't penetrate jumbos or pershings reliably...

[nikomas]

The shreck is fine, the jumbo vs the shreck is retarded...

Skirted panther, lolk 



Still, this is not a problem in itself as you can normally use P4's to at least delay them a little when they have the 75mm gun... What breaks it apart is the TR 76mm upgun, that thing makes the jumbo flat out broken as the only viable counter left has to panther level, shrecks stand no chance in hell and even paks struggle with it.

Now PE is were it gets fucked hard, poor poor PE... The jumbo is like a tiger to them.

[skaffa]

Schrecks work vs Jumbo if u hit it on rear armour. Also, cheap Stug with heat rounds does very well vs Jumbo, try it.

[PonySlaystation]

There is nothing wrong with the pak or schreck. There are many effective combinations that you can run. Defensive has the Pak40, Blitz has Keep it Moving. Terror has the Marder I which now gets free fast fire.

As for the Jumbo, Flak 88, Panzerfaust and Stug they have balance issues by themselves.

The Jumbo has both balance and design problems. Infantry doctrine have powerful infantry and support weapon buffs and with the Jumbo, a heavy tank. Where is their specialization? they have everything. I would rather see it as a reward unit so that Armor and Royal Engineer players can make good use of them instead of seeing every Infantry player with a heavy tank. When you have to bring a Tank Destroyer company to counter a company based around Elite Infantry and Support Weapons then something is inherently wrong with the design of that doctrine.

The Panzerfaust and Stug are not bad units, but they have some odd characteristics that make them unattractive options. If the price of the Panzerfaust was too cheap at 30 MU and nobody uses them at 40 MU then you can damn well bet that 35 is the optimal price. But that's not even the issue, if the price and pool cost of panzerfaust was increased because it was too effective against AT guns then why wasn't the damage against AT guns reduced? Like what was done with the Schreck? The entire idea behind Volksgrenadiers is that they're supposed to be a cheaper alternative, but that doesn't reflect well on their upgrades.

Which leads me to my next point. If schreck damage was reduced against AT guns, why was recoilless rifles left unchanged? Two airborne squads can now destroy a pak with a single salvo. Which makes paks one of their main targets due to the range and accuracy of the recoilless rifles. I thought the balance design was that hand-held AT were not supposed to be that effective against AT guns.

The Stug's main flaws are it's low range and high pop. Specifically the range, it has only 40 range when other Tank Destroyers have 45-50 range. The population cost is high for a unit that relies on support to be effective but that may be a biproduct of having low range, hence the range of the Stug should be reviewed first.

The Flak 88 change should be reviewed too. Why would I want to pay 450 manpower and 220 fuel for an immobile unit that gets decrewed just as easily as an HMG? The artillery ability was destined to be removed or reworked but why change the armor of the crew? there was no need for that. It was not an overpowered unit aside from the artillery.

[tank130]

What the hell....... who stickied this crap?

[XIIcorps]

I suppose if the jumbo is that bad of an offender we could ask for the 76mm upgun to be removed.

Although they did have access to it "historically", for the sake of balance.

[Hicks58]

The Upgun itself isn't really the problem, it's the Panther Skirted armour.

Like I said, a HP increase and Churchill armour should make the Jumbo more tolerable. It'll be much more consistent vs tank guns and ATG's/Shrecks will have a 50/50 chance of penetrating for the most part.

[tankmaster23]

 For the StuG you could give them bonus to rotation speed for doctrine unlocks like panzer aces that give turret rotation bonuses for tanks .. I also think AmPm stated that maybe a change so no moving accuracy negatives when shooting while rotation since most shot come when rotating. Also the range should probably go to 45 or 50 depending on what combinations are chosen to fix up the StuG..

 Rocksitter