A V R E & Brummbär

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[TheWindCriesMary]

As much as I think the AVRE and Sturm were considerably over buffed (worse, at the same time) I do agree with XII corps (even I'm surprised) that a double significant nerf isn't justified. It's just pendulum balancing again, that thing I'm always ranting and raving about.

I would agree that the decrease in range coupled with a small cooldown increase would be the best start versus the range and a hefty 30s one. Remember the problem doesn't always need to be chased for a solution in one go. We have time. One change could go in that makes it slightly better and then 2 weeks later after observation a second could follow if needed. It actually prolongs getting the unit to the healthy middle if we go too far in one direction due to multiple tweaks and then people stop using the unit and no one can observe which was the part that broke the camel's back.

[Korpisolttu]

No need to argue about the atg los thanks to Winds exhaustive answer. I think Avre can shoot over destoyed single-storey houses which is very annoying, but in the other hand obstaces are sometimes saviours for sturm/avre targets when the shell hits walls/trees/lampposts etc.

[XIIcorps]

It just seems funny that alot of people arguement is that the AVRE/Sturm kills their ATG and support weapons.

Its a bloody hard counter to those units, sure it can also fight inf blobs or even some HT's and LV's abeit with much skill on the players part.

It should loose 5m range immediatly, so it has to go deeper into AT range to get a shot off, should they still prove to be too cost efficiant we move to the next level of nerf.

[TheWindCriesMary]

It just seems funny that alot of people arguement is that the AVRE/Sturm kills their ATG and support weapons.

I don't think I've seen anyone complain that it kills their ATG and support weapons. I think you've seen people rightly pointing out in this thread that, for its cost and intended role, this unit currently is far too effective at destroying many support weapons and enemy units over the course of a game without taking much damage in return if used carefully.

A good case in point is what you mentioned about a Sturm facing off versus an atg. In best case situations for both units, a Sturm should take a lot more than 2-3 shots (of which some might not penetrate regularly) to wipe out a 380mp/140muni unit most of the time. Why? Because even without any kind of diversion, lack of penetrating shots, or failure to scout the full 60 range of the atg from the opposing player, this steal means a Sturm with repairs could wipe out 4 or more atgs one on one per game (someone with the time and the RGD knowledge could calculate exactly how many atg shots it would on average take to kill a sturm or avre from the front).

Then you factor in things like how in in-game circumstances it's rare for an ATG to get off the full 2-3 shots before it's evaporated, or how there can be target priority stealing diversions (send in a p4, or a heavy like a JP or Tiger etc. to soak up 1 or 2 shots until the atg is wiped out), or how sometimes a Sturm follows a big push etc. and you've got a big problem.

THEN we have to factor in the opportunity cost of losing an ATG during a crucial push. Suddenly one axis or ally player our of 3 has now wiped out a critical piece of AT, perhaps right before a massive push. Losing that ATG could mean hundreds or thousands of other resources now are vulnerable to be lost to a vehicle or armour rush. These are losses that the Sturm may have opened up but which we don't directly attribute.

We can't just look at the range of the sturm and the range of an atg and, in a vacuum, go "aha! The stats show there's nothing wrong here!". That kind of approach is what landed us all with a 45 second, 45 range lol canon that everyone and their mother was able to regularly get 40 kills with.

[Korpisolttu]

When I have time to micro, I put inf going to atgs FoF/LoS like 0.5s before Sturm enters it, so I get one less hit to my sturm when atg shoots my inf first.
One thing I really hate in coh engine is that infantry has to shoot tanks and AT has to shoot at inf.

[Hicks58]

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a unit being able to instantly destroy something with zero warning beyond standard visual range.

A goliath can fuck your day, but it has to get in your face.

Artillery can squad wipe half your fielded pop, but you hear the rounds firing and can dodge during the shell's delivery.

No support weapon can pack up and move in the time it takes for a Sturm/AVRE to point, fire and have shell on target. No infantry can get any kind of reasonable distance if it is stationary when the Sturm/AVRE takes aim.

The fact that a Sturm/AVRE CAN instantly kill support weapons/blobs is not a problem, the problem is you can effectively do it from out of sight and warning.

[NightRain]

Then something's wrong with T57 since I couldn't dodge them for what it is worth.

What is the AVRE/Sturm ability range anyway?

[Shabtajus]

never used avres or brumbars, but they aint good tbh, leave em as they r atm

all cool

[Hicks58]

never used avres or brumbars, but they aint good tbh, leave em as they r atm

all cool

That pretty much cements the fact that there is a problem.

[Korpisolttu]

never used avres or brumbars, but they aint good tbh, leave em as they r atm

all cool

Says the guy who has three Avres on field simultaneously, one of em vet3 with xp145 on lb. I recall you saying abusive Sturm or smthing like that earlier. Not sure if troll or excuse, maybe just Shab.

[Shabtajus]

or maybe ya just mad cuz avres beat yo ass bro 

move ya inf man aint no need sit and have a nap in frontlines. move man move all da time

[Batgirl]

Well obviously these things fire too far. Easy fix for most parts.

Other thing I dont like is that these things automatically kill everything inside a building no matter the health or how they theyre hit etc - i mean you shoot on a corner of a big house and everyone in the other side of the house die too, sometimes you dont even have to hit the building, shooting close is enough.. Not sure if its fixable?

[XIIcorps]

Well obviously these things fire too far. Easy fix for most parts.

Other thing I dont like is that these things automatically kill everything inside a building no matter the health or how they theyre hit etc - i mean you shoot on a corner of a big house and everyone in the other side of the house die too, sometimes you dont even have to hit the building, shooting close is enough.. Not sure if its fixable?

Fixable yes, Intended yes.

These units are supposed to be breakthrough units, to remove an entrenched enemy.

[Korpisolttu]

Actually you don't have to even hit the house, just shoot near it so you might have even chance to shoot it out of the garrisoned unit's los.

[XIIcorps]

Actually you don't have to even hit the house, just shoot near it so you might have even chance to shoot it out of the garrisoned unit's los.

Due to the modifiers of the units weapon, same as when it hits Light or Heavy cover it might do no damage to the intended target.

And as far as i can tell all inf have boosted LOS in garrison, which should bring them all upto 45.

[GrayWolf]

Due to the modifiers of the units weapon, same as when it hits Light or Heavy cover it might do no damage to the intended target.

And as far as i can tell all inf have boosted LOS in garrison, which should bring them all upto 45.

http://i.imgur.com/Wv0zM9S.png
I hope it's enough.

[Korpisolttu]

I don't know what los inf gets in garrison, tho everyone knows it's much farther than not garrisoned. If it's 45 like you mentioned, then there shouldn't be problems shooting next to house and staying out of garrison los if the avre/sturms weapon range is 45 aswell.
This though needs small micro, if you go for the shot from full speed, at least sturm rolls a bit forward before stopping so it reaches garrison los.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I don't know what los inf gets in garrison, tho everyone knows it's much farther than not garrisoned. If it's 45 like you mentioned, then there shouldn't be problems shooting next to house and staying out of garrison los if the avre/sturms weapon range is 45 aswell.
This though needs small micro, if you go for the shot from full speed, at least sturm rolls a bit forward before stopping so it reaches garrison los.

This is true. You can shoot from outside the LOS and wipe out all the inhabitants of a building. It's a nifty little trick though really, really dangerous and potentially overpowered.

[tank130]

This is true. You can shoot from outside the LOS and wipe out all the inhabitants of a building. It's a nifty little trick though really, really dangerous and potentially overpowered.

Why is it considered dangerous?

[GrayWolf]

Why is it considered dangerous?

100% accuraty arty with insta-kill possiblities? Is it dangerous or not?