The State of Balance

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[GrayWolf]

I just want to say one thing :
"Better player cannot just start lossing, because some vet-whore is running vet 5 tanks/infantry."
Nerf vet and reward units. Actually it is funny, when your Vet 5 PZ IV (IST) has >50 infantry kills + 3 lv kills, but it's not fair.

[Mister Schmidt]

That sounds good in theory Schmidt, but now go through every RW unit in the system and pair it up.......doesn't work.

Actually Tank, you've inspired me to do (attempt to do) just that when I get home. Will probably start a new thread to not hijack winds one.

Also, Rolcsika's idea is very good, and is pretty much what I meant

[TheWindCriesMary]

I like your idea too, but also want to stress that as far as game balance and overall gameplay is concerned what matters more than how RW units are earned is how powerful they are when they are earned.

As long as the super silly reward units are balanced to be more fitting with the rest of the units in the game (including the many examples of reasonable reward units like Marines/Achilles/Jp4) then that'd be great.

[NightRain]

Elite grenadiers aren't anything special, just a grenadier squad with elite armor and access to panzerfaust which makes them something but nothing interesting. Marines on the other hand. 5 men 80 HP per squad and Grenadier rifles, smokegrenades access to LMG and bazooka and handgrenades. Makes them the best squad available in game in terms of anti infantry and quite a good choice. They don' gain a lot of buffs, but Infantry Officer with Operation Overlord will affect them and boost their stats.

From vehicles most of them are pretty normal. Jagdpanzer 4 outclasses every single medium tank Axis have and the most important part is that PE gets a hold of them. It is a StuG with Panther armor good health and panther gun (alternatively). It simply is the best tank destroyer that isn't a super heavy.

Most of the allied ones are pretty standard- nothing special just a different hull. Achilles, M10 with firefly gun nothing fancy about it aside of "Do not charge in and die" thing. Slugger a Sherman with Pershing HVAP gun now with nerfed anti-inf cabilities, not a bad choice and is pretty good still. M3 Lee- that is the most unique of allied tanks in all fairness. M8 gun, Sherman gun uhhuh it is a decent tank, also sherman armor.

Chaffe is just plain silly machine. Slightly splash nerfed Sherman gun on a Stuart armor, rapid machine with good line of sight and mobile. Extremely mobile may I add? It is at the brink of overpoweredness, especial with certain doctrine choices which I leave unmentioned but those who have faced them knows what I am refering to or might have the idea. Basically it is the king of all light vehicles. It has substancial AT and AI in a package that is fast, something Hotchkiss dreams about but can never achieve.

Nashorn is a pickle. It is superior to a 88 due to the fact it can move and abuse Mid T4 by cloaking and remaining cloaked. Not extremely easy to arty either but it comes at a cost of loss in anti infantry and its reload is a long one which is the only awful thing about it.

Ferdinand nothing interesting there just a copypaste jagdpanther without the mobility but increased range.

JagdTiger fancy Anti-anti-tank gun. Slow and takes awfully lot of punishment while performing its task. Its achievements are questionable at best for its price. It can work as a line breaker though.

Sturmpanzer, the axis AVRE. Not a bad vehicle to be fair, its role is quite good and it shares the same objectives as AVRE but makes itself more famous by targeting a large number of targets, carries a stug armor which by all fairness isn't a bad armor.

P4/5. CCT Also a fancy choice it is what most people dreamt of. Quick panther armored P4, nothing more to mention of it.

Super Ostwind. Anti inf lawnmower. Once this flower opens majority infantry based dies unless they kill it first. Poor vs anything with a tougher armor than elite armor.

M8 Scott a IST gunned stuart. Not ideal vs anything but infantry and honestly standard stuart is better than this thing.

Valentine AA, the super quad, currently the best infantry lawnmower and can even hunt down halftracks with little fear. Suprisingly great machine- nerf bats are incoming with a change for this machine to make it something different. Possibly worse from the current one.

Cuckoo, Allied panther, not very much to say about it aside of the fact it is worse in every aspect. Still a great choice of a heavy tank.

K Carrier, why is this thing still in the game?

Comet Nerfed panther gunned cromwell with a sherman armor. Not the greatest heavy medium that there are. No range of a panther and so on.

etc. Some are good, some aren't Simple as that. There are still cards nobody wants. Failschrimjäger snipers for WM? Yes who'd like those?

[TheWindCriesMary]

etc. Some are good, some aren't Simple as that. There are still cards nobody wants. Failschrimjäger snipers for WM? Yes who'd like those?

The FJ sniper is the single best sniper in the game by a mile. If you don't want one of those in your WM army you're not using them right.

[Hicks58]

Speedy...

If you're going to make big sweeping comments like that, at least be accurate.

Elite Grenadiers also come with G43's as standard.

JP4 has the PzIV gun, not a StuG gun as default.

Slugger has a HVAP Pershing gun, but with +5 range so it still has the TD range of 45 - This makes it better than the upgunned JP4 for offensive capabilities debunking your idea that the JP is "Simply the best TD that isn't a super heavy".

Chaffee has Sherman splash but with LV damage (65) meaning the only inf it can competently one-hit is Volks/Luftwaffles. It also had a major speed/accel/decel decrease (It has 0.5 less accel/decel and is 0.1 faster than an M8 - meaning it's actually a bit LESS mobile than an M8).

M8 Scott had it's .50cal rotation fixed so that it's not a PoS, making it leagues ahead of the Stuart for AI power, and the IST shell it fires can still deal with any LV's competently. No idea why you'd think the Scott is bad, it's brilliant at AI duty.

Cuckoo is identical to the Axis Panther now. It is not "Worse in every aspect", the debuff that it used to have is gone.

Comet doesn't have a Panther gun, it has a Pershing gun (Same accuracy, penetration table, range, reload) with Sherman splash and 112.5 damage rather than 137.5. It also has 742 health vs the Cromwell's 636 and that armour upgrade to Sherman armour is a massive upgrade from Cromwell. It's actually the best medium tank you can get your hands on, even more so if a CCT becomes involved. The only thing that competes with it's cost-efficiency is the PzIV-CT, IF it was to be classified as a medium.

[NightRain]

Speedy...

If you're going to make big sweeping comments like that, at least be accurate.

Elite Grenadiers also come with G43's as standard.

JP4 has the PzIV gun, not a StuG gun as default.

While it is true they come with G43 but it isn't the enormous deal with them.

And Hicks, Jp4 L48 = StuG gun. Unless P4s suddenly get 1.5 damage modifier vs Shermans, slightly less penetration as a default. It does have P4s accuracy versus infantry though so I give you that.

And yes Hicks, Sherman armor is cardboard box compared to JP4s Panther armor. Also it costs more and isn't as efficient as a JP4 is. If you boost JP4 with L70 you also get Panther gun with 47.5 range. While you do lose the nifty 1.5 modifier vs Sherman and gain worse stats versus infantry.

True though, Comet is the best Medium BRITS can get their hands on. Wouldn't call it the best though.

[deadb0lt]

the problem is balancing a mod with such a small playerbase and such a wide variation of player skill

[Hicks58]

Elite Grenadiers are a legitimate threat to anything BUT Marines as far as standard infantry goes.

JP4 has PzIV accuracy vs inf, not the StuG's gimped 0.4 accuracy.

It also has the 40 range, rather than the StuG's 45.

For general combat purposes, it operates more like a PzIV gun than it does a StuG gun.

You'll note that I said for OFFENSIVE purposes, the Slugger is ahead of the JP4.

The Comet is the best medium that Brits, US, PE and WM can get their hands on. It shits on the Cromwell, Sherman and PzIV as well as being able to stand up to the PzIV-CT. The only reason it doesn't shit on the PzIV-CT is because the two units operate on different sides of the spectrum. In fact, I have a hunch if I do the math it'd end up that the Comet would have much better odds in a stand-up fight between the two.

[tank130]

the problem is balancing a mod with such a small playerbase and such a wide variation of player skill

and almost every player has a different view of what is balanced to their play style. Some players would agree with every opinion Wind puts forward, others would disagree.

As has always been the case with EiR:R, many things are discussed, but the Dev team has to filter through the loudest, longest posts and determine all the facts. With so few players actually posting on the forums, it can be difficult to determine all of the facts.

I thought Myst was going to take this on and make things happen? Seems kinda short lived - to bad really.

[PonySlaystation]

The Comet is the best medium that Brits, US, PE and WM can get their hands on. It shits on the Cromwell, Sherman and PzIV as well as being able to stand up to the PzIV-CT.

What are you even talking about? The Comet is 225% more expensive than a Cromwell. It's in the same price area as the Panther, Tiger, Pershing etc.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I thought Myst was going to take this on and make things happen? Seems kinda short lived - to bad really.

Myst wasn't an active player before he became BT lead so that was a problem. He came back and played a bit around the time it happened and now a few months in isn't really active again.

And that can't be blamed on him. He was given the gig with that info being known up front and frankly there were no other candidates to fill the job. It's undoubtedly a tough, time consuming and thankless role. If they're not an active player who has motivations to play the mod beyond the work of trying to balance it there's almost no way anyone would be able to maintain the interest to go the distance over the long run once the novelty of making changes wore off.

It's not month 1 or patch 1 that says the most, it's month 7 and patch 20. That's where the real proving  happens.

Its slow and precise. Its long and slow. It's not sexy or cool or fun if it's being done properly (that is, conservative and slight changes over a long period of time). Nobody who isn't an avid player would be able or willing to go that distance required to see a balance strategy carried through from beginning to term.

[Mysthalin]

Hi Guys,

Sorry the recent patch has been taking so long. I've had an absolute crapload of stuff hit me in real life - stuff I had no way of predicting would happen in most of these cases, and others which I knew were going to happen but underestimated the amount of time consuming stupidity I'd have to go through to get sorted.

The patch is well underway, however, and a lot of the balance issues you are talking about will (hopefully) be fixed to a certain degree. If not, we'll just keep at it.

Thanks.

[Smokaz]

When I see the team being called out so hard in the initial post, it's hard to muster up the enthusiasm to make a reply (at least for me)

Good to see that concerns are being discussed in a constructive manner

And that Mysth has replied.

With that commented upon: I dont know about the Maus since I have played so few games with it, but the only thing that irks me me when it comes to reward units is the SP and the Tiger ace. Tiger ace is a little too good vs inf, and SP has a little bit too much armor when it's vet 4.

Edit: so many concerns in one thread is very messy and makes it hard for other devs to read through it all later

[Smokaz]

Another way to solve reward units for EIRR 2 is to make only 1/10 of the unit reward cards permanent

So basically, it dissapears after 1 game, but you can get a special whore version which you will be deathly scared to lose

Thus also making them more epic

[Illegal_Carrot]

Gonna touch on a few things here, hopefully you all can see where I'm coming from here:

It was decided as an experiment to see if people would actually care about holding on to vet if it meant something, ya know, the entire highlight of EiRR being a PERSISTENCY mod - It always felt strange that zerg rushing to the last man was more attractive when the entire concept of the mod is that you can keep things alive from battle to battle...

But choosing to forego veterancy and sacrificing your units in order to get the most out of them should be an equally viable option, and locking away these abilities on vet 1 really screws over anyone with any suicide units in their company. Besides, vet is already way too powerful in this mod, and locking away useful core abilities like that only makes the problem that much worse. What makes EiR so attractive is that you can save your vet between games, not that you have to.

All reward units should be rarer. It should be something remarkable when you see one in a game - not, "Oh, there's the 3rd "X" reward unit in his company"

I agree with you entirely with regards to Rare and Legendary reward units, as seeing a Super Pershing or Cuckoo Panther every few games is really annoying, but not so much with Common and Uncommon units. If I want to replace all the Rangers in my company with Marines, for example, and pretend I'm running a Marine company, I should be totally able to do that. It'll certainly cost me a lot, in terms of unit prices and gold required to purchase the reward cards, but that level of company building and customization is what makes EiR unique and so great.

Alternatively, sack off the very concept of 'reward' units
Make them tiered units:
Oh hey you got 700xp on that Gren squad? Look, they're Elite Grenadiers now!
Your Cromwell survived 40 games? Heck, trade it in for a Comet!

This is a really bad idea, IMO. This would not only completely remove the option for 90% of players to customize their company with reward units, but make vet even more powerful than it already is. Only top-tier players would ever get a chance to play with such units.

In terms of doctrines, cutting their power in half by 50% would be a good step in the right direction.

I feel that there isn't any one single culprit in terms of overpowering buffs (be it doctrine, vet, etc.), but the crazy combinations you can get when you combine these things. Veterancy, doctrines, officer buffs, etc. were all designed without properly taking each other into account, so you end up with things like a single Rifleman squad, when utilizing all the buffs available to it, having 70% more effective HP (and that's not taking things like cover into account), almost 250% of their base DPS, while taking only about half suppression, in addition to things like increased sticky bomb range, free grenades, free grease guns / BARs from Operation Overlord, etc. The buffs available to some units, especially if you try to game the system, are just too good.

the problem is balancing a mod with such a small playerbase and such a wide variation of player skill

This is probably the biggest issue facing the mod, honestly. You have veteran players, who know the game inside and out and have had years to hone their skills, and you have new players who are just learning the basics. The best way to even the playing field, provide a fairer gameplay experience to newbies, and retain the players we do already have is to reduce both the "soft" and "hard" benefits that veteran players have: reduce the effectiveness of veterancy, balance / rework the doctrines so that all doctrine choices are equally viable, tweak gameplay so that most tactics / strategies / play styles are equally effective, and reducing the effectiveness of "high intensity" units like snipers, and officers, as well as gimmicks.

[XIIcorps]

New players need more advantages tbh.
Increased rerolls for their first 20 games or sth.
Free recons because you know they may not have brought many if any scouting units.

[CrazyWR]

how do you differentiate between new players and new accounts?

[tank130]

how do you differentiate between new players and new accounts?

By attaching it to the PID not the BID in the SQL. Then issuing severe penalties (Automatic wipe of all companies, no warnings) for multiple accounts.

In other words, attach it to your account, not your battalions like it is now.

[Shabtajus]

I think it should also be pointed out that there were zero to very little complaints about balance when the docs were removed - so perhaps that is more the problem? I would suggest removing docs again to asses the real unit balance: but none of this 3 - 4 day bullshit, that achieves nothing.

We had removed doctrines for a while as an experiment to find out balance problems. So what we got from this? You guys had plenty of time to figure out what causes problems. But non of devs were playing a game during that time to get a real feeling of meta game without doctrines. So all this no doctrines was waste of time and made a lot of players leave a launcher untill doctrines were back. I am not judging devs here for trying find a solution to make this mod be a fun and balanced game. All new ideas and moves i apllause. What frustrates all of us i mean active daily players is that so much talk is going on about meta and balance and vital desicions are made by peopple who dont even play this mod regulary and most of the time they heve zero motivation improve gameplay since they dont care about it. I do understand its thankless and hard job to do beūng a degeloper of a game wheęe evryone is bitching about this and that but come on just play eirr a little bit often before and after balance desicions to get a taste of real meta game and than i truly believe regular players will get more confidence in dev team. After you will taste what does it feels to be stuck in retarded game for weeks where officers zerg around like rambos or avre can shoot down fucking star ship like a boss etc etc. Maybe than hot fixes will he done faster so as balance changes.