[US] M10 compared against Stug

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[Hicks58]

And what are you expecting from a 175 FU Assault Gun?

The M10 is a 220 FU dedicated TD, and it can't reliably penetrate the front of a Tiger or Panther for shit. 0.55 Pen vs Tiger, 0.4 pen vs Panther and that's assuming the luxury of being point blank range, 0.462 at long range for the Tiger and 0.336 for the Panther.

But on that note, the only heavies that the StuG has to deal with? Pershing/SP/Jumbo (The Pershing and Jumbo it can currently outrange btw), I'd say Churchill but it's not a legit threat to the StuG, even if the StuG will have a headache whittling it down. Everything else the StuG can deal good damage to.

The M10? Tiger, Panther, Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger, Elephant, King Tiger and Tiger Ace.

You've got a much bigger chance of the M10 bumping into something it can't handle than the StuG - and the StuG has the luxury of slapping on a 50 MU MG which makes it incredibly competent at AI duty.

[aeroblade56]

Hicks is right we should buff the m10

[Hicks58]

Yes Aero.

That was exactly what I was saying.

...Sigh.

[aeroblade56]

Yes Aero.

That was exactly what I was saying.

...Sigh.

Yeah i read right through to the truf you big softy

[Smokaz]

And what are you expecting from a 175 FU Assault Gun?

The M10 is a 220 FU dedicated TD, and it can't reliably penetrate the front of a Tiger or Panther for shit. 0.55 Pen vs Tiger, 0.4 pen vs Panther and that's assuming the luxury of being point blank range, 0.462 at long range for the Tiger and 0.336 for the Panther.

But on that note, the only heavies that the StuG has to deal with? Pershing/SP/Jumbo (The Pershing and Jumbo it can currently outrange btw), I'd say Churchill but it's not a legit threat to the StuG, even if the StuG will have a headache whittling it down. Everything else the StuG can deal good damage to.

The M10? Tiger, Panther, Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger, Elephant, King Tiger and Tiger Ace.

You've got a much bigger chance of the M10 bumping into something it can't handle than the StuG - and the StuG has the luxury of slapping on a 50 MU MG which makes it incredibly competent at AI duty.

Stug also fails vs jumbo and churchill. As a both m10 and stug lover, my humble experience is that the m10 performs better than the stug vs heavy targets. If I wanted to take on a pershing/tiger, I would rather have 2 m10s than I would like to have 2 stugs.

I also notice that the chasing power of the m10 hasn't been mentioned. Chasing with a stug is a pretty frustrating EIRR event, much like kiting with it.

Base m10 is a monster unit, if anything it lacks a T3 or T4 that gives it more health.

[Hicks58]

3x StuG - 525 FU (450, if you don't bother with Skirts) This can wreck a Pershing flat out at 24 pop, and can then be used to go and trash whatever else your opponent has with it's juicy StuG MG.

2x M10 - 440 FU This can take on a Tiger, and then... Crush some infantry? The M10 is a better TD than the StuG can hope to be with it's speed and half decent gun, but the StuG will always have the advantage of not being a drain on pop after you've dealt with an armoured target.

Stug also fails vs jumbo and churchill. As a both m10 and stug lover, my humble experience is that the m10 performs better than the stug vs heavy targets. If I wanted to take on a pershing/tiger, I would rather have 2 m10s than I would like to have 2 stugs.

I mentioned the StuG not being ideal for the Jumbo, and the Churchill is a non issue due to them both being so meh vs eachother. However, there is a 58%ish chance to get through Churchill armour so it's not all that bad (When you consider any variant of Churchill is just going to sit there plinking you all day).

The StuG's not as bad as people make it out to be, it's just that there are better alternatives to deal with the current meta and people will naturally go for maximum cost efficiency. It's a cheap and cheerful all-rounder piece being pretty good at both AI and AT, but EiRR naturally favours speciality builds.

Chasing with a stug is a pretty frustrating EIRR event, much like kiting with it.

Oh and with regards to this, against mobile units I agree but take three StuG's and ram them down the throat of a Pershing and watch what happens (After taking care of any loitering secondary AT before doing this, of course). Spoiler: The Pershing gets reamed for a list of reasons.

[Smokaz]

Stug is a good unit no doubt, and we can come up with all kinds of scenarios where one does better than the other, I'm just posting my experience. Infantry crush is nothing to sneeze out.. do a quick search for "m10 crush" on eirr forums and you will find a long history of people finding this hard and frustrating to combat.

Oh and with regards to this, against mobile units I agree but take three StuG's and ram them down the throat of a Pershing and watch what happens (After taking care of any loitering secondary AT before doing this, of course). Spoiler: The Pershing gets reamed for a list of reasons.

Oh, and the problem I have with this is that a stug cant circle around a atg while dealing damage to whatever it's chasing, your scenario with 3 stugs chasing a pershing ignores atgs, while m10s actually have the ability to track their target while avoiding the cone of marders and paks. It's not easy but it at least has this capability.

I also strongly disagree with not getting skirts on stugs. There may be a Dnice p4 - but dnice stugs are just fail vs handheld. Skirts are too good to drop, so it's more fair to always calculate it into the price.

That said including all capabilities, the stug has that rocking mg that can supress into crush. But it also pays for it.

[XIIcorps]

Blame the german engineers for not building turrets into their assault guns/tank destroyers.

Its not like we can give the stug what it hasnt got for the sake of balance.


Honestly the M10 is fine, and if you find yourself fighting more heavies.
Buy an achillies

[Hicks58]

your scenario with 3 stugs chasing a pershing ignores atgs

take three StuG's and ram them down the throat of a Pershing and watch what happens (After taking care of any loitering secondary AT before doing this, of course)

Skirts are too good to drop, so it's more fair to always calculate it into the price.

3x StuG - 525 FU (450, if you don't bother with Skirts)

C'mon Smokaz, do me the decency of reading my posts through, at least.

[aeroblade56]

all i read was axis OP.

[Smokaz]

Yeah sorry, a bit late here. Still the turret thing really counts when kiting or chasing. You know I harbot you no bad will

[XIIcorps]

Yeah sorry, a bit late here. Still the turret thing really counts when kiting or chasing. You know I harbot you no bad will

the stugs new 45 range makes kiting .

Granted chasing is harder then the m10, but these are 2 completly different units. You cant draw comparisons between them.

[TheWindCriesMary]

In practical in-game terms, 3 m10s is a lot more dangerous and nerve inducing to face than facing 3 stugs.

If I see the enemy has called on 3 stugs it's no big deal. They will mostly be engaging me from the front, will be doing minimal damage to anything before it either moves back or is destroyed/damaged by my team's AT assets and is unlikely to surprise me or do anything unexpected.

3 m10s on the other hand is a totally different story. Suddenly, nothing is safe. Not my flanks, not my back country, and especially not any repairing vehicles (including super expensive repairing tigers/jps/etc.). Worse, I know if I've got panthers on the field it's going to mean either my panther is going to die, or take a shit ton of damage. My p4s might as well not exist. Any infantry capping without 2 at pieces around it or with handheld equipped are going to be squished to smitherines.

All bets are off.

That's the power differential of an M10 vs a stug.

[aeroblade56]

m10s dont like schreks in hTs

at all.

[Smokaz]

"You cant draw comparisons between them."

^negated whole thread?

[XIIcorps]

In practical in-game terms, 3 m10s is a lot more dangerous and nerve inducing to face than facing 3 stugs.

If I see the enemy has called on 3 stugs it's no big deal. They will mostly be engaging me from the front, will be doing minimal damage to anything before it either moves back or is destroyed/damaged by my team's AT assets and is unlikely to surprise me or do anything unexpected.

3 m10s on the other hand is a totally different story. Suddenly, nothing is safe. Not my flanks, not my back country, and especially not any repairing vehicles (including super expensive repairing tigers/jps/etc.). Worse, I know if I've got panthers on the field it's going to mean either my panther is going to die, or take a shit ton of damage. My p4s might as well not exist. Any infantry capping without 2 at pieces around it or with handheld equipped are going to be squished to smitherines.

All bets are off.

That's the power differential of an M10 vs a stug.

30 pop for 3 M10s, giving you 0 AI ability if the enemy armor is destroyed.
24 pop for 3 stugs who still have excellent field prescence should their intended target pull off or die.

that 6 pop difference (not to mention the cost) makes alot of difference.

"You cant draw comparisons between them."

^negated whole thread?

You can compare M10s to Achillies, but comparing an M10 to a Stug is like comparing an M8 to a KT.

Its really no contest.

Stug has its merits and lets not forget its 2 pop cheaper then an M10, better armor and better AI ability.

[EliteGren]

better AI ability.

I lol'd

[aeroblade56]

I remember when m10s could snipe reliably and they got like 10 kills on average without crushing. it also wasnt rare to see 3 m10s swarm 1 atg and destroy it then use calling it in and mop up.

[Hicks58]

I lol'd

M10 crush is fantastic, but given the choice I'd probably be more inclined to take the instant short range suppression and StuG powerslide tbh.

[XIIcorps]

I lol'd

MG+Crush VS crush, Statistically you'll get far more AI kills with a StuG.