[WM/CW/US] Medium Tanks

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[TheArea]

P4s are strong vs inf as long as they dont have HHAT, or AT support (no kidding?).  P4s are strong if they can flank atgs or get rear shots on other med armor.

Otherwise, AB blobs rape them, M10 circle strafe them, atgs hurt them (3 or 4 shots and they are at or below 50% health, ie time to go rep), and sherms seem to have better frontal armor (?).

I dont know what the solution is, but they are just a glorified ostwind atm.  Only difference is that ost has weaker armor and kills quads quicker, and p4 kills m8s, stuarts, and t17s if they dont run away and just stand still for 4 or 5 shots.

[Heartmann]

I still suggest to add more health to the piv, and/or dmg resistance, able to hold vs m10s better and survive against hhat/atg aswell

[XIIcorps]

I still suggest to add more health to the piv, and/or dmg resistance, able to hold vs m10s better and survive against hhat/atg aswell

And what would you have the sherman or cromwell recieve ?

[aeroblade56]

I still suggest to add more health to the piv, and/or dmg resistance, able to hold vs m10s better and survive against hhat/atg aswell

yeah gweat idea lets make it fights m10s better so it can literally fuck its counters.

gweatideam8

[Hicks58]

At the moment, the M10 will beat a PzIV face to face so long as they both hit each other every time (A literal slug-match). Any misses are liable to make the M10 die.

However, it'll do so by a single round advantage, meaning your M10 is left as good as dead for health at the end of the engagement. Even a minor durability buff would break the fragile balance in favour of the PzIV allowing it to destroy it's hard counter.

Which would be kinda stupid.

The AI on mediums is fine, the durability and armour of them is fine (Cromwell just needs it's warp drive back to re-qualify), their damage vs heavies and arguably mediums is fine.

So that leaves price, pop, speed and damage vs LV's to work with for balance. Price and pop could be legit factors, speed is a very sensitive area and damage vs LV's is also another legit one. There might be something else I've missed but nothing notable springs to mind.

There's also the left over vCoH crap to consider like mediums being MUCH less pop intensive in vCoH and the fact that you could repair them in field to retain field presence - Which you can't do in EiRR, putting them at a disadvantage by simply existing in EiRR's environment. The big appeal of mediums is that they've got enough durability to effectively shrug off a few rounds of hard AT and get their job done, to which you then patch them up and go do it again. You can't do that in EiRR because deliberately soaking up a few rounds to make something dead, effectively puts your medium out of commission.

[aeroblade56]

yes let us give them small repair kits.

so this way they can get back into the action faster. and repair those broken modules and ensure they keep a field presence longer.

[NightRain]

Issue with light vehicles is mostly the fact that they can cap with a Tier 4 doctrine. Remove that and the effective value of LV spam drastically drops. One would also think of possible counter units to be made. (Or buffing certain vehicles vs LVs) such like Ostwind that does reduced damage against one.

[Hicks58]

This is about mediums.

Even if it weren't, LV's are still incredibly effective even without capping, as shown by the fact that people are using them right now, and only armour ever had access to that in the first place.

[Korpisolttu]

Imo all this Panther/FF or LV talk is OK as long as it's related to this topic and not about what we shold do for example for LVs (coz this is about ineffective med.tanks).
Like Nightrain stated, making ineffective mediums better tank killers would make Panther/FF and pak/atg less usefull which all are pretty much balanced/OK atm.
I don't know about infantry killing should it be puffed or not, but WHAT ABOUT LV killing like what Wind already suggested? If accuracy/damage against LVs was improved, it would make rarely used medium tanks more attractive choice. Also LV spam would be less effective and less attractive choice after making medium tanks better against them.
As mentioned, stat changes affect so many other units, that making medium tanks simply cheaper is very attractive balance choice.

Please no replys that I'm starting an argue that somebody is going too much offtopic etc. That's not my intend, I'm just going to say this topic is still about  wehr P4, Sherman and Cromwell, if I'm not misunderstood?

[XIIcorps]

Pricing resource and pop wwise is definitely a consideration.

dropping med pop by 2 and lowering cost by say 15% would go a long way to seeing them fielded more.

Also making them more effective vs lvs is another attractive option.

[NightRain]

The idea of medium tanks being better Light vehicle killers is not a bad idea. However that would severely damage 50mm Puma if sherman and cromwell were better against it making it a less than ideal chase and kill type of a vehicle where as P4 would love fighting against M8s and Staghound variants and would make light vehicle spammer's life harder.

I would buff Ostwind in anti light vehicle role. The mediums are fine in a sense, but they are hard to use, especially in a anti tank gun heavy environment as they can not afford to take hits as often as i.e mediums would. Extra repairs or more expensive heavy tanks is one step to go to boost out attraction of medium armor. In current resouces you can have 5 fully upgraded panzer 4s for instance. Each will cost you 400 manpower 260 fuel and if double repairs it'll be a hefty 100+ munitions per piece. Was it 165? Regardless it means that about half of your munition is spent on tanks leaving anything else as to either get anti tank guns or infantry upgrades or both in lesser numbers. This means company is sacrificing a lot in hopes that medium tanks would pay themselves back. And it is far harder to make a medium pay itself back than a heavy.

[rolcsika0128]

We should start thinking a little bit more outside of the box. Here are my ideas which are far from being perfect (might be imba at some point) ,but could bring this discusson to a different stage.

Firstly, we should ask ourselves what is the supposed main role of a medium tank.

Is it intended to soak up a lot of dmg?  No. It can take quite a few hits already, no point in hp/rec dmg buff. This role is for heavies.

Is its primary role to really try to flank / fight heavies, even if it's 2v1? No thats what atgs and TDs are for. Heavies MEANT to be able to handle multiple meds if managed properly. As a result of this, let's put aside dmg / pen increase aspirations.

Should we buff its accuracy vs LVs? Certainly not, like Speedy said it would badly hurt LVs like the puma. What about acc vs inf? No need, they are already good vs inf.
Then what's the real issue?

As many of you have already stated, it's all about the speed. Aside from silly LV cap ability, speed makes lvs to overshadow mediums. Speed grants the ability to rapidly react and reposition, score more kills, and in overall be more pop and cost efficient. And this game is all about efficiency. (Off: single zooks are effective but not Efficient, this is the reason they underperform by a huge margin)

Create the possibility for meds to be able to do what they can the best: escort the 'circus' and benefit THEM.

Some possible solutions:
Give meds extended LoS and detections, so it can detect threats earlier, so your fighting force can react, without having to field jeeps for more pop.

Give them an active or even passive tank awareness of x meters, so you can prepare your at force appropriately.

Give passive inf acc / atg cooldown / etc buffs for surrounding units, so will have a real interest in having them on the field instead of only LVs.

Combine the problem brought up by Illegal Carrot with the issue of meds. LET INF SLOWLY REGENERATE NEAR MEDS. I know it sounds scary, but its worth a shot.

Will add new points if something comes to my mind

[NightRain]

Neither of the ideas are very good solutions because there is always a better and cheaper alternative for infantry x tank play. M10 and riflemen, StuG and volksgrenadiers for instance. They supplement one another's weakness one way or another. M10 is there to give the necessary long range AT support for the rifles where as StuG does suppression and long range AT without being as fast nor having a turret.

Basically the cheaper alternatives overshadows medium tanks. I am repeating myself when I say that mediums themselves aren't bad but are hard to use. The fact they are hard to use is one thing in the pointer. They can take few hits but can't afford to sponge it, they ain' fast enough to flank around and do epic harasment or well they are but getting away is where the problem arises. Light vehicles also carry a higher chance for anything that fires at them to miss.

Basically: Mediums are good at nothing but decent at everything. Its the main tank that does it all but don't expect it to rule in all. if you improve something it has a risk of making the specialized one be ignored. Myst was thinking of increasing price tag of heavy tanks to make them less ideal than mediums since heavy tanks perform X% Cheaper than medium armor.

[tank130]

We should start thinking a little bit more outside of the box.

Yup, like adjusting Heavys to make mediums more attractive.

Heavy should be a much larger investment, but with higher returns, but with a higher risk if you loose it.

[Smokaz]

Yup, like adjusting Heavys to make mediums more attractive.

Heavy should be a much larger investment, but with higher returns, but with a higher risk if you loose it.

Basic tigers and pershings already work like this imo. They aren't overwhelmingly good or tough.

[GORKHALI]

no need to increase the fuel srsly just make so that each company can have just 1 heavies like 1 tiger or pershing per coy same as king tiger and jagdpanther, otherwise u cannot bing anything else.

making 1 heavy per coy will force players to go for more medium tanks then stick to 2 heavy tanks.

but if they use reward units then there should be enough fuel to bring another heavy like SP or TA or JT  otherwise its no fun .

[Korpisolttu]

no need to increase the fuel srsly just make so that each company can have just 1 heavies like 1 tiger or pershing per coy same as king tiger and jagdpanther, otherwise u cannot bing anything else.

making 1 heavy per coy will force players to go for more medium tanks then stick to 2 heavy tanks.

but if they use reward units then there should be enough fuel to bring another heavy like SP or TA or JT  otherwise its no fun .

I thought two pershing/tiger coys aren't very useful  nowdays? When I tried coys like that people were mad at me wasting all fuel to shitty tanks. They could be great if they would hit something, but it feels like that they miss more nowdays and got weaker HP/armor. Can't really confirm this coz I base this only for ingame experience (can have bad RNG luck) and people's strong critism. Sorry for the offtopic anyways, back to topic ->
I don't feel aswell that fuel amount should be increased, but why not to only reduce fuel costs of medium tanks?

[Smokaz]

Would like if you could only have heavy or super heavy - including reward units - per company.

[NightRain]

if it'd be just one heavy tank in company obviously people would choose Super heavy over a standard heavy (At least Axis) where as allies are limited to one or the other. I wouldn't recommend such course of action as it'd make heavy tanks less desirable as a result.

[Smokaz]

There's not supposed to be a limitless stream of reward unit replacements.