CW Balance Discussion amd doctrines

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[Scotzmen]

Thread for discussion of commonwealth units and it's doctrines. Thread for discussion of US units and it's doctrines. Suggestions shall be added to the list ETC

If doctrine related, mark with appropriate color, if unit, simply put unit.

Doctrines:

Commandos:

Historically, Commandos were hit and run, smash and grab, hit em hard, hit em fast and run like hell after. Masters of daring raids and played havoc behind enemy lines or where the enemy thought they couldn't be reached.

I know COH isn't historically based, I'm not retarded. But making the commando doctrine reflective of its real life counter parts job would be interesting

Would love to hear suggestions for doctrine tweaks. Not a whole new doctrine. Tweaks. I'm not here to create a new set of 12 Doctrines and 256 different combinations of em.

Engineers:

Problem: 17 Pdr can't build emplacements
Suggestion: Pending
Fix: Fixed (needs launcher implemented)

Artillery:

Units:

Units that seem to never get used, or are a problem due to being OP or UP

Problem: MkVI Chruchill useless on field
Suggestion: Change weapon to 17 pounder comet cannon
Fix: Fixed

Problem: Commando Units under performing/ not performing to the mark.
Suggestion: Various buffs when in enemy territory/ Asymmetric warfare ability
Fix: Fixed

Problem: Bren MMG carrier unable to preform effectively/weapon unable to preform
Suggestion: Increase turning speed, either increase long range damage, or increase suppression
Fix: Fixed

Problem: Stuarts Ai capability lacking a little
Suggestion: Increase infantry accuracy by 10%
Fix: Fixed

Problem:
Suggestion:
Fix:

Please keep it orderly and on topic.

[Hicks58]

Problem: MkVI Chruchill

Suggestion: Currently, it's pretty useless. Basically a sponge. What if we upgraded the weapon to a 76mm cannon? Therefore making it able to hunt tanks better, but less effective at fighting infantry. Making this and the church croc more placed in certain roles.

There is pretty much zero difference between the Sherman 75mm and Sherman 76mm for AI effectiveness. You lose a little bit of long range on your AOE splash, that's it. Short and medium (Where the damage is done) remains exactly the same between the 75mm and 76mm, so it'd be a straight upgrade.

Honestly, what I'd much prefer to see, is the Mk VI replaced by the Churchill Black Prince if you really wanted to go down that route. A 17 Pounder on a Churchill Chassis, making for a slow, damage soaking, hard AT hitting platform.

Suggestion: Commando units were hit and run specialists. Always making problems behind enemy lines, real smash and grab stuff. What if, we gave commando line sections the ability to sprint in enemy territory, when upgraded with stens? Then through doctrines, we gave support elements the same ability, or have it as an upgrade. May or may not loose their smoke ability though.

I'd love to see Commandos become the hit and run specialists that they really were in the war... But the entire unit layout would have to be redesigned so that they become fast, very hard hitting, fairly high evasion, but very low durability. Simply slapping enemy territory sprint onto Stens would be a recipe for a lot of hurt. It'd also kind of fuck them, because sprinting units cannot fire on the move.

I'm not against Commandos having a redesign in principle, I'd LOVE to see it, but it'd have to be carefully drafted. It's not a single unit fix I'm afraid.

[Scotzmen]

I could give the churchill MKVI a 17 pounder gun with the same stats as the 17 from the comet. It's entirely possible. I did make a model for it, but for whatever reason, it would just crash the game. Not entirely sure why tbh.


Forgot that sprint doesn't allow you to fire.

What about sections getting the heroic charge ability on a reasonable cool down only when in enemy territory? Therefore they aren't completely hampered by sprinting constantly, and can be activated whenever you like. Or make it like the FALLS quick response doctrine where it is toggle enabled.   

[Hicks58]

I could give the churchill MKVI a 17 pounder gun with the same stats as the 17 from the comet. It's entirely possible. I did make a model for it, but for whatever reason, it would just crash the game. Not entirely sure why tbh.

Isn't there a community model of the Black Prince out and about? Could be worth having a snoop around and finding the author, if it exists.

Having a Churchill Mk IV with a 17 pounder gun would be visually confusing.

What about sections getting the heroic charge ability on a reasonable cool down only when in enemy territory? Therefore they aren't completely hampered by sprinting constantly, and can be activated whenever you like. Or make it like the FALLS quick response doctrine where it is toggle enabled.   

Oddly enough... I'd think shit like Asymmetric warfare is up Commando's alley. Not in the old broken form it was originally in, but the concept wasn't bad. Multiple-option-single use abilities to drop damage on a target and then leg it.

[Scotzmen]

I'll have a look and see if i can find it.

And that actually sounds not half a bad idea tbh. The ability is already coded, just need to figure out how it works...

[Hicks58]

Just...

Make sure you play with that one before committing. Terrible things can happen if you just go ahead and apply that particular ability lol.

[XIIcorps]

the problem with the mk6 is cost vs effectiveness.

its far cheaper to just use a cromwell due to similar aoe guns.

churchill does have the hp, but thats rendered moot by its speed.

now if anyone remembers the mk4 with its accurate low splash 2pdr and it costing along the lines of a stug that is where the mk 6 should go.

[Scotzmen]

Just...

Make sure you play with that one before committing. Terrible things can happen if you just go ahead and apply that particular ability lol.

Aye, i know. Thing is, i don't have a clue how it work though. Since it was un-linked from airborne, I'm not sure how it works. Nor do i know where to start. Could you explain it to me at all?

Should something actually break game play, it'll be patched asap.

[nikomas]

Uhm, I'm just wondering what's changed since the Mk6 was last patched, I remember it having an absudly large health pool and dandy armor toughness while barely costing more than a PzIV. I don't remember it being nerfed either?

Sure, Marders wreck them but what's changed since then? Honestly curious.

[XIIcorps]

Uhm, I'm just wondering what's changed since the Mk6 was last patched, I remember it having an absudly large health pool and dandy armor toughness while barely costing more than a PzIV. I don't remember it being nerfed either?

Sure, Marders wreck them but what's changed since then? Honestly curious.

Churchill MkVI: Health increased from 700 to 900

more then a pershing right ?

tho is its cost still 410mp 260fu ? price list says so, but i thinkits different in launcher.

[aeroblade56]

Uhm, I'm just wondering what's changed since the Mk6 was last patched, I remember it having an absudly large health pool and dandy armor toughness while barely costing more than a PzIV. I don't remember it being nerfed either?

Sure, Marders wreck them but what's changed since then? Honestly curious.

well for one we gave PE sprint on all units at vet 1 for free.

didn't we also change the 50mHT to0 munies instead of fuel? or just reduce the price.

the Mk6  has health sure, good armor sure. but it's slower than the KT if i remember correctly, it also can't chase anything or run from anything.

i also think i remember that 2 PE doctrines went through small changes (TH and Luft) while RE and commandos have stayed untouched. so it may not be the unit it may be the doctrine that needs some shaping up.

[XIIcorps]

Engineers

17 Pdr emplacements thats never been in, i propose some other buff.

going with the theme,  can we RGD code a beneficial buff after the gun has been stationary.

I just dont know what tho.

[Hicks58]

Uhm, I'm just wondering what's changed since the Mk6 was last patched, I remember it having an absudly large health pool and dandy armor toughness while barely costing more than a PzIV. I don't remember it being nerfed either?

Sure, Marders wreck them but what's changed since then? Honestly curious.

They were patched, they are theoretically half decent, but they are still pretty much completely unused due to the Cromwell always being a better idea if you're not using Crocs or AVRE's for your tank based AI.

They were explicitly designed in vCoH as an early game cheap disposable unit to throw at the enemy before they can really get too much AT up, and to be eventually replaced by the Croc. That hasn't translated over to EiRR very well at all, and there's only so much that can be done to it before it over shadows the Croc or becomes silly.

Better off just re-purposing the unit/unit slot tbh.

Churchill MkVI: Health increased from 700 to 900

more then a pershing right ?

Pershing is 990.

[aeroblade56]

Problem: MkVI Chruchill

Suggested Solution: Give Comet gun with lesser stats, increase price 20 fuel. 




Problem Commando unit

Suggested Solution: increase smoke duration to something like 15-20s( this way they are sorta like storms in and out)

[koimn6]

Problem: Commando Units & some doctrines

i'll keep think bout mando outline

Suggested Solution:

there is very easy to give them survivality is give them more duration when they use suppression break.

or we could give them camo like Fallschirm not like stormtrooper it could be cool, and hope they have ambush buff same like fallschirm.

about sight
pathfinder : could think about new unit. bad at fight but they have more sight then normal infantry like omg
radio triangulation : let them hard to find radio. now its too easy to find them.

-about replace  lancaster bombing, now they'r srsly useless

[nikomas]

See, the only issues mentioned for the MkVI so far has been PE related, if you take them against a balanced WM company you usually have a field day. It's not a good anti-armor vehicle because of the low speed, however it is already a total no-go for any other medium tank to fight it, it'll kick the living daylight of the similarly priced PzIV for example.

A comet gun would start giving Tigers pause for thought before engaging it, the tiger will surely win but will likely take a decent dent while doing it (not counting in CCT). Is that really sound? If so, it sure can't stay at a low price if it's about to damage Tigers/Panthers reliably.

[Hicks58]

Price would obviously be scaled to it's new capabilities, whatever it goes into. Leaving it at it's current price after an upgrade would be stupid to put it mildly.

Also, I'm not in agreement that the Comet gun would be the way to go. I was thinking more along the lines of a 17 Pounder, of the Achilles variant - Which is essentially a range reduced Firefly 17 Pounder.

Against WM though, the Croc would still be a better option than the Mk VI if you want more investment, and the Cromwell would be better if you wanted similar.

[aeroblade56]

what if the problem isnt the unit but PE and it's ability to punch holes in any amount of armor.

If the tank does get a 17pdr gun i suggest we up the inf accuracy and make the splash tiny or the other way around.  and up the price.

im not really for a 12 pop firefly thats slow and and just provides another AT  with no way to last shot anything.



but with blitz doctrine and all of pe the  unit is hunted even crocs are hunted incredibly easy.

[XIIcorps]

Stuarts are too narrow in their use for 8 pop.

Suggest a decrease to 7 pop

[Hicks58]

Stuarts are fine as-is. They're strong anti-LV, and alright AI. They'll also do a number on tanks with lucky rolls on mediums and good flanking on heavies.

Not entirely sure where the idea that Stuarts are too narrow and need a pop decrease has come from.