Making Tank Crews

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[Scotzmen]

Bail then scuttle. Still trying to perfect it. As when you bail, the squad exits the tank immediately,  but doesn't actually become active till 6 seconds.

Still, it works in the most basic form.

[AlphaTIG]

how about this:
first scuttle (20s fuse)
scuttle unlocks bail, with 6 seconds cooldown before usable
crew can run(sprint) immediately after bailing for 15 seconds

[GrayWolf]

Everytime someone hit the mine while retreating... hit the bail out key and run after around 5-10 seconds. Yeah... The whole idea is only good for people who care about their vets too much (aka vet whores or vet hoarders).

Veterancy should be earned by playing safe and smart. I don't know, but this makes veterancy even easier to gain. Especially for axis heavies who are easy targets when crippled. The only purpose for mines will be to force enemy player to repair.
I also would like to go back to the first paragraph and say that AB mines (that are often placed behind enemy lines to cripple retreating vehicles) would lose their main purpose.

To be honest. Shouldn't engies/pios repair be implemented first? If there would be a need to increase the survability of tanks, you could implement the tank crews.

I completly agree with Hicks. (buttering up intensifies)

[Hicks58]

I completly agree with Hicks. (buttering up intensifies)

If you completely agreed with Hicks, you'd realise that scuttling vehicles would only affect vet retention and have zero to do with the purpose of backline mines. (Kicking down like an unwanted puppy intensifies)

To elaborate, the purpose of backline mining in any form is to cripple vehicles and force them to waste a repair kit or to get off the field. It doesn't matter if the target is stuck there, explodes, or has the crew get out and leg it - the vehicle has been taken out of the game.

Vet retention on vehicles has only ever favoured heavies due to the health buffer involved, medium and lights get thoroughly shafted for vet even with very low requirements. Only the speed demons tend to get consistent vet.

To compare, if a wounded squad hits a mine and loses all but one man and most of it's health... You push the retreat button (Assuming vet retention is the intention) boom, squad preserved. If a damaged vehicle hits a mine and gets instant engine destroyed (Which WILL happen if health is pushed below 40%, bar one or two exceptions for example elite armour crits) you pray that you haven't used your kit yet. If you have used your kit, you start arranging the funerals for all crew members who valiantly sit in the vehicle waiting for something to come blow it to pieces.

[GrayWolf]

if health is pushed below 40%, bar one or two exceptions for example elite armour crits) you pray that you haven't used your kit yet. If you have used your kit, you start arranging the funerals for all crew members who valiantly sit in the vehicle waiting for something to come blow it to pieces.

That's basicly it. Sorry if I misread your intentions. Spending 25 muni on AT mine is still better than losing 60 or more on repair kit. Even hitting lv is more cost effective. Of course mines deployed behind enemy lines are more vulnerable to minesweepers, but the first 2 should get the target.
I just don't like how crippled vet tank crew can just run away with no fucks given in this situation. That's all.

Alpha, if that's going to be OP vs OP, you just have to prevent it, not go for it and seek extra protection with Durex ^TM

[Hicks58]

I just don't like how crippled vet tank crew can just run away with no fucks given in this situation. That's all.

I just don't like how crippled infantry squads can just run away with no fucks given in this situation. That's all. - See how that works?

vCoH had vehicles designed so that they could be spot-repaired if they got fucked up by disablers. We've taken over a lot of vCoH balance and mechanics, but a lot of them really do not fit a limited resource environment (vCoH is a limitless resource environment).

Repair kits are something that'd work sweet in vCoH itself funnily enough. In EiRR, resources are finite and you can't just spot-fix a blown engine if some twat drops some AB in your back lines and lol-mines your main retreat path without you knowing. There's no spot repairs, there's no crew bailing, you just get fucked. It's shits and giggles for the back-line-miner but it's just pure frustration for the person on the receiving end.

It's not so much a question of balance at this point, but a simple question of fun. It is purely not fun when you are presented with common situations that can permanently fuck you, even if you're doing things right. It's why shit like XCOM still has guaranteed damage weaponry such as grenades and rockets alongside the RNG based direct fire weapons - So if shit hits the fan you CAN work things out, if you've made a backup plan and are smart.

[GrayWolf]

I just don't like how crippled infantry squads can just run away with no fucks given in this situation. That's all. - See how that works?

Tanks do a lot more damage and the infantry can go out of "being crippled" without spending munition. Some infantry just lose health which can be fixed with yes munition, but for whole infantry of yours and your allies (triage, medics, etc.).

Going for placing mines by dropping AB (because now that's the main target of our conversation) means a lot of MP and muni spended, which can often lose a match. Mine is only 25, but you take a pair which is 50 and RRs to finish it off and that's 350 in total at the minimum to be honest.
That might not be a fair argument when it comes to veting up and I'm not a fan of "lose a battle, win a war" talk either, so just let this argument be.

Do what you want. I've just told you about getting reward tanks and 75% of axis tanks getting vet much more easier.
Imo engies and pios having "repair kits" (system where you spend munition when repairing) would be much more better. You could repair engine in 15-30 seconds if not underfire and run away safely. You could do it without going to your respawn so it could prevent you from taking extra loses, but you would have had to stay on the battlefield for a while and have some more pop. I find this system better.

without you knowing.

And to be fair, you know when AB is being deployed and where because of the sound. AB and mandos are just like that, being dicks, killing all the tanks that go for repair. It was always like that, before mines. Stickies (which are better in term of immobilazing, because they can be thrown) and RRs.

[Hicks58]

Yeah, you've completely missed the point.

[GrayWolf]

Yeah, you've completely missed the point.

You said it's not in terms of balance, but fun (or sth like that) if you kill the retreating tank and the actual system in EIR can do nothing about it and it needs change. I say it's balance and doctrine design. I also proposed another option for EiR that is mentioned time to time for quite a long period of time now. That's what I did

You can always say that CoH is all about RNG and there are just few things that nearly give you 100% for something. But there's higher possiblity to achive your goal if you do things smart, for example you'll lose less men if you're not gonna get kited (and not belive that RNG will make tank miss all the time).

I do try to understand you man, okay? I fear that my english isn't enough or you should put things simplier. Sorry.

Can you put it simplier just for me? Like: "Garry, what I meant is that EiR need different repair system, which is..." or "The current repair system fails when you hit a mine after using repair kit" or whatever. It's not my native language and I cannot read between the lines really well. :/

[tank130]

Lets be careful not to enter the theory crafting on this subject. It's hard not to, but please be mindful.

Tank crews will be a mistake in my opinion and here's why I think that:

1.) Making repair squads ( call them engies for simplicity ) will benefit all vehicles - not just tanks.
2.) Having engies mitigates the concern that a simple mine can fuck over your tank / vehicle and you loose your opportunity to retain vet.
3.) Infantry may be able to retreat with no fucks given, but in most cases, a single or double mortar is not going to dissolve your tank as it would with most infantry squads. A single or a double ATG hit is not going to instantly dissolve your tank.

Comparing the ability to retreat infantry and retreat tanks is an unfair comparison. The lethality and survivability of the two is vastly different.

To invest a shit ton of resources to take down a Super pershing only to have it come back the very next game with more vet does not sound very fun at all. In fact, it would only take a few games to vet whore up that sonnofabitch to vet 5 levels with nothing more than your original investment.

Having to invest in engies and keep them alive to repair your unit to higher vet levels rewards smart game play.

[GrayWolf]

To invest a shit ton of resources to take down a Super pershing only to have it come back the very next game with more vet does not sound very fun at all. In fact, it would only take a few games to vet whore up that sonnofabitch to vet 5 levels with nothing more than your original investment.

Having to invest in engies and keep them alive to repair your unit to higher vet levels rewards smart game play.

Basicly, what I've meant to say.

[aeroblade56]

i think we have other things to work on

[Hicks58]

To invest a shit ton of resources to take down a Super pershing only to have it come back the very next game with more vet does not sound very fun at all. In fact, it would only take a few games to vet whore up that sonnofabitch to vet 5 levels with nothing more than your original investment.

That kinda shit would only happen if a crew scuttle was instant.

It would be fucking insanity to have instant decrew and retreat tank crews, even I know that, and I have more than once stated as such.

If an entire process takes around 10 seconds for a crew to actually get out and start sprinting back to spawn, then the target is going to be absolutely fucked or the crew ran down if it's attempted during combat.

[GrayWolf]

If an entire process takes around 10 seconds for a crew to actually get out and start sprinting back to spawn, then the target is going to be absolutely fucked or the crew ran down if it's attempted during combat.

There is a lot of situations like mines or when tank was stickied (magnetic nades for PE), but there's nothing more around it yet (because all AT was killed by SP and its bodyguards like it is often). These situations are made my smart players who have LV callins on the way. 10 seconds is enough in quite some situations. Even 20 isn't that long compared to when tank crew repairs the tank (repair of last chance).

[Hicks58]

Then you've successfully put a tank/vehicle out of the game for a small amount of MU.

Except the vehicle user doesn't get fucked over cause they tripped on a mine they weren't expecting. Infantry squad hits a mine and is left with 1 man, the only thing you can do with it is suicide back cap or just retreat it. Vehicles/Tanks get shit all options, they're just straight up dead even though they've done everything right up to that point.

You can still vet hunt just fine, but you've got to put some more effort into it than simply placing a few mines around and going lolololol free kill later when somebody eventually trips on it.

It's a persistency based game, where being able to KEEP your companies is pretty much the main damned highlight. You'd think this sort of stuff would be a welcome addition.

[aeroblade56]

yeah im sure though persistence and being able to keep your vet is such a nice thought.

Support teams in general get straight up fucked by so many units. avre sturmpanzer are will nuke units in fow and destroy any vet on inf and on support weapons so easily.

same thing with goliaths being able to completely fuck over a entire blob on infantry in a click of a button. you know how much fun it is trying to hide behind cover in a skirmish just for a goli to take out 2 vet 5 tommies.

i know im just babbling here, but as welcomed and and a cool idea of the tank crews are there are probably more immediate things that probably should be looked at.

[tank130]

Tank crews are the wrong answer in my opinion. They will cause far more grief than any value to the game.

Repair units offers a far better variety to game play as well as increasing the ability to retain vet.

[Hicks58]

Support teams in general get straight up fucked by so many units. avre sturmpanzer are will nuke units in fow and destroy any vet on inf and on support weapons so easily.

same thing with goliaths being able to completely fuck over a entire blob on infantry in a click of a button. you know how much fun it is trying to hide behind cover in a skirmish just for a goli to take out 2 vet 5 tommies.

I love it when people use broken shit as supposed evidence and reasoning for shit to never be made better.

You're right man, cause some shit is broke, we should just stop trying to fix things, amirite?

[tank130]

Normally I would agree with you Hicks, and everyone knows I hate to agree with Bolt, but I don't think he was comparing broken shit to say we shouldn't change anything.

I think the point he is trying to make is just because infantry can retreat with no fucks given doesn't mean everything else should.
Tanks have a hell of lot more survivability than infantry or support teams, so why are you not making that the priority over  tanks?

Tank crews is a massively broken concept that should be scrapped. It is very disheartening to know Scotzman has invested a lot of time into this when it could have been invested into a viable option like repair crews that affect a larger range of units.

We need a repair unit change on light vehicles. Adding in this mechanic on top of retreating tank crews is just flat out broken.

[Scotzmen]

Hang on a minute. You lot would prefer having unit with litrelly limitless amount of repairs over having something you can defeat but not kill the vet?

You would prefer a super Pershing to have nearly limitless repairs from engineers in one game. RATHER than having something able to retain it's vetrency?

Is that what you guys are saying?

You could litrelly pile all your munitions into keeping a powerful unit on the field for most of the game with just buying repair after repair on engineers in the launcher.

In all honesty, I'd prefer having it vet retained rather than having to face it again and again and again. Because I don't really give a fuck about unit vetrency or the act of killing someone else's vet.