November patch general balance thread

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[TheVolskinator]

Throwing this up for discussing pre and post patch balance issues people think should be addressed. Here, I'll start.

Goliaths - still too pants on head retarded, so, courtesy of terra, I propose we hardcap it to a maximum of 6 per company.

Sprint [PE] - After facing off with skaffa half a dozen times, and playing against nothing but sprinting, faust-wielding FSJs, it's come to my attention that Sprint on each and every PE squad is a massive pain in the ass to do anything about, and it should either

-A - Give the unit a 1.5 or 2x received accuracy or damage modifier
-B - Be removed from all PE units, and re-added through the purchasable veteran sergeant
-C - Be given to Allied infantry as well (WM has Blitz + Keep it moving for it's ONLYUSEmeSPRINT giggles).

Reward super-heavies - Yeah. Again, I point to Skaffa's nothing-but-a-TA-two-marders-and-FSJ company to explain how stupid this is. Honestly, I think it's more of a problem with Axis units, since they have access to the best MGs, blob control, HHAT (barring the current doctrinal BS RRs), AT, and for the most part, tanks. HOWEVER, I can smell the cries for the Spergshing to go the way of the Dodo too. What do I propose? No idea, but they're ridiculous to fight against when they're part of an uber infantry company that just so happen to have one of the two best tanks in the mod in its back pocket.

Elefant - The thing costs, what, 840 fuel from what I've been told? What?? I can see no stat that justifies this price, a reduction to some number, any number that is lower than that, is in order.

Crusader AA/Pz IIs - Still fantastic infantry wiping machines that can wade into a blob of enemy infantry and basically nuke it before you get the chance to smack the 'T' key. Some sort of change is needed, what it is, exactly, I don't know.

Bren Wasp - From the metric butt ton I've seen in the last week or two, it either needs to get a little more fragile (HP from 400 to 300?) or lose ~5m of range. It just seems too damn effective for its cost.

Hetzer - absolutely pathetic; at the very least I think it should get Pz IV mods against infantry so that it can end up killing something during the course of a game. On top of that, it should probably get its ambush by default.

Comet - I've been told that this tank is too fast (speed of 5.2, same as the M4 and Crom; Flank Speed same as Crom), that its armor is FAR too effective (it has Sherman armor with 0.9 rec. dmg and pen tacked on), that it's FAR too tanky (it has 742 HP, the same amount as the Panther), and that the gun is far too good (strikes me as a mutant 17 pdr. and Sherman upgun). Okay, then. We'll address the mobility; no more Flank Speed.

88 Opel Blitz - Metz has brought to my attention the fact that the 88-building Opel Blitz is too vulnerable to attack, and is too easily prevented from constructing the 88 if blocked by any sort of unit. I propose increasing the build range of the 88 to at least 10-15 m away from the truck, so that the SCAR script that builds the 88 won't be interrupted by any units that move in between the Opel and the 88.

Wespe - For 3 shells, the scatter is too great. Statistically, this should be a US howitzer on treads--not a T57, but a more powerful, slower firing SPG.

[Tachibana]

Goliaths: 5 pop might be too much. +1/2 pop and +10 fuel / +10 muni +5 fuel would be a better start. Don't want to over nerf too quickly. Another option is to just cap them, but lets avoid that if possible.

Sprint: Purchasable vet sergeant for sure. Free sprint should only be available through doctrinal unlock/unit. Free sprint on ass/tb/nilla grens is too much.

AB RR's: The porblem is the doctrine, not the unit I would say. Just let the doctrine wipe happen. Once RR's are back to 35 range and AB dont have 20% more health, I think the complaints should be gone.

P2/Crusader: Range reduction. Stops them from kiting HHAT.

SP/TACE: they shouldn't exist tbh.(not in their current form)

Elephant: It is probably the worst of the reward heavies, but I have not used them, so I don't wanna say what to do.

Hezter: Problems are doctrine based. However, ambush should def be there by default.

Comet: Change armour to Cromwell for a start since it has flank speed. Option two would be health reduction. Otherwise, it is fine as is. No need to nerf the offensive output.

[terrapinsrock]

Goliaths - still too pants on head retarded, so, courtesy of terra, I propose a pop increase to 5, and/or a speed nerf to 4. If issues persist, then give it infantry armor so that it can't wade through several machine guns to jihad it's target of choice.

This would just make the Goliath completely useless. I would say maybe take away their armor dodge bonuses (Believe they get the Axis bike bonuses)

Hard capping anything will lead back to the slippery slope towards pool. We don't need pool back at all (it needs to die in a fire).

[XIIcorps]

AA/PII - Reduce moving Acc, so they cannot kite as effectively.

Goli's - id say a MU increase to 140-150 the same price as a ATG seeing as this is what they 9/10 times take out. Atleast at this price its a 1-1 price trade off.

Elephant - This is just a mess stats wise, ineffeicent cost wise, and snipes inf better then it does vechs.

[GrayWolf]

Goliaths - still too pants on head retarded, so, courtesy of terra, I propose a pop increase to 5, and/or a speed nerf to 4. If issues persist, then give it infantry armor so that it can't wade through several machine guns to jihad it's target of choice. If we don't go for any of this, don't change anything about the unit, just hardcap it to a maximum of 6 per company.

+10 muni +1 pop. They are supposed to be democharge on a track. Also making them cost as much as ATG is stupid, since you have to risk to do nothing when rushing towards atg.

Sprint [PE] - After facing off with skaffa half a dozen times, and playing against nothing but sprinting, faust-wielding FSJs, it's come to my attention that Sprint on each and every PE squad is a massive pain in the ass to do anything about, and it should either

-A - Give the unit a 1.5 or 2x received accuracy or damage modifier
-B - Be removed from all PE units, and re-added through the purchasable veteran sergeant
-C - Be given to Allied infantry as well (WM has Blitz + Keep it moving for it's ONLYUSEmeSPRINT giggles).

You know why PE infantry has sprint? Because it is more vunerable or at least should be (after so many buffs and nerfs I am not really sure how it is, but they should be easier to suppress than other infantry at the very least).
When it comes to FJs, in open field they are like grenediers, but worse in terms of HP I belive, and it's doctrinal infantry. I can bitch much more about AB/Rangers having Fire up aka "nofucksgivenmovingawayngroids".


-A - it's already worse compared to fire up, so why make it even worse? Apply the same values to fire up and everybody is happy
-B - Again, make fire up cost some too.
-C - WM blitz is the only doctrine with sprint and it's doctrinal anyway. Inf doc Infantry around tanks have perma buffs to received accuracy (.85) and received suppression (.50!), so why not give it to everybody? See my point?

I could live with A, as soon as fire up gets the same nerf.

Airborne/RRs - In short, the whole doctrine is FUBAR, and we all know it. Whoever signed off on 42 range RRs needs to be smacked, and then forced to play with engine destroyed Churchills for 3 months. Once the doctrines have been shut down for the vanilla unit test phase, I propose either

-A - a scatter increase, to to-be-determined value
-B - a range reduction to 32.5

Do agree. RRs shouldn't be able to shoot through smoke so effectively.

Reward super-heavies - Yeah. Again, I point to Skaffa's nothing-but-a-TA-two-marders-and-FSJ company to explain how stupid this is. Honestly, I think it's more of a problem with Axis units, since they have access to the best MGs, blob control, HHAT (barring the current doctrinal BS RRs), AT, and for the most part, tanks. HOWEVER, I can smell the cries for the Spergshing to go the way of the Dodo too. What do I propose? No idea, but they're ridiculous to fight against when they're part of an uber infantry company that just so happen to have one of the two best tanks in the mod in its back pocket.

Remove both of them? Make normal Tiger/Persh with abilities (with cost reduction)?

Elefant - The thing costs, what, 840 fuel from what I've been told? What?? I can see no stat that justifies this price, a reduction to some number, any number that is lower than that, is in order.

680 fuel and it's much more playable

Crusader AA/Pz IIs - Still fantastic infantry wiping machines that can wade into a blob of enemy infantry and basically nuke it before you get the chance to smack the 'T' key. Some sort of change is needed, what it is, exactly, I don't know.

PZ II is fine compared to Crusader anyway lol. Both of them need firepower nerf (with cost decrease).

Bren Wasp - From the metric butt ton I've seen in the last week or two, it either needs to get a little more fragile (HP from 400 to 300?) or lose ~5m of range. It just seems too damn effective for its cost.

Nerf the range to match the croc lol.

Hetzer - absolutely pathetic; at the very least I think it should get Pz IV mods against infantry so that it can end up killing something during the course of a game. On top of that, it should probably get its ambush by default.

Hetzer should be a tank destroyer. Give it stug gun with worse acc against infantry, but better acc against lvs and tanks, and camo ability from the start  :p

Comet - I've been told that this tank is too fast (speed of 5.2, same as the M4 and Crom; Flank Speed same as Crom), that its armor is FAR too effective (it has Sherman armor with 0.9 rec. dmg and pen tacked on), that it's FAR too tanky (it has 742 HP, the same amount as the Panther), and that the gun is far too good (strikes me as a mutant 17 pdr. and Sherman upgun). Okay, then.

-Speed from 5.2 to 5.
-Armor type from tp_sherman to tp_cromwell.
-Main cannon identical to Sherman upgun.
-HP from 742 to 636 (identical to M4/Crom HP).

Okay, Comet cost 450 fuel, which is 100 fuel less than a Tiger. It is very expensive as for allied tank and I would just MAYBE nerf the received pen values :p

88 Opel Blitz - Metz has brought to my attention the fact that the 88-building Opel Blitz is too vulnerable to attack, and is too easily prevented from constructing the 88 if blocked by any sort of unit. I propose increasing the speed from 7 to 8, the HP from 200 to 300, and increasing the build range of the 88 to at least 10-15 m away from the truck, so that the SCAR script that builds the 88 won't be interrupted by any units that move in between the Opel and the 88.

88 is supposed to be placed in secured piece of the battlefield. If you go yolo and put it while not advancing (prevent enemy from pushing to spot it and kill it), then well, k. Also it's not really fuel expensive and losing one isn't the end of the world. Once placed is just fucking killing machine (buffed ofc, because that's the only way you have them in your company )

Wespe - For 3 shells, the scatter is too great. Statistically, this should be a US howitzer on treads.

Make it like t57

[GrayWolf]

Double

[rolcsika0128]

Goli: increase munition price to 140

PE sprint: add veteran sergeants as a purchasable ability for 50 mp in order to gain sprint

Airborne RRs: lets just not overreact, disabling doctrines should improve the situation a lot

Reward super-heavies: the fundamental problem is then again the doctrines which give way too powerful buffs. Leave them as they are, remove doctrines and even when the new ones get re-implemented, super-heavies (including elephant, SP, TA) should not be affected by them

Elephant: I agree that its current fuel prices is too high. Maybe decrease it by 100-150 as a start

Crusader-AA: 5m range decrease should do the trick as a first step

Bren Wasp: increase fuel cost to 80 to match other LVs (keep it in mind that its mobility is somewhat mediocre which makes it less op)

Hetzer: camo ability by default with those juicy first shot bonuses)

Comet: it is absolutely fine as it is. The main problem came from the ablative plating unlock combined with the vet 1 less rec. damage buff. You already pay shittons of fuel (450) for a unit, which has on the one hand a fantastic gun and good mobility, but on the other hand its armor (even is somewhat better than cromwell's) is not a real threat to anyting heavier than a p4. And no, a p4 should NOT be able to effectively fight a 450 fuel tank. Just remove doctrine ablities, and lets see how it perfroms
Those ideas you presented in regard of the comet's possible changes are horrible. Who on earth would possibly pay 450 fuel for a british upgun sherman. Please volsky, I know a lot of crybabies are trying to give you ""balance ideas"" , but please do not give too much credit to them and do not overreact

88 Opel: Just lol.... metz aka ick trying to give balance ideas with a clear bias towards his company built is just outright ridiculous . 88 is a high risk-high gain unit. The main risk comes from the vulnerability until it is set up. Protect your damn Opel truck until 88 is ready and don't beg for buffs to make up for your fails (too aggressive positioning, etc)

Wespe: US howi stat 3 shell mobile SPG should do the trick, I agree

[AlphaTIG]

To all the haters, my main concern is the bug taht can occur when the truck is blocked or pushed away while building, which makes him retreat and leaves the 88 unfinished.
i didnt ask for any buffs on the truck, just for a solution of this problem..

I agree on making the Wespe an axis t57

and wehermacht also has squadleader sprint in the defense doc.

[TheArea]

As much as I hate to admit it the Panzerwerfer needs a smack with the nerf bat. They are one of the few things that scare AB blobs and that's saying something.

T57 acc probably needs a tweak, but if your gonna make Wespe a mirror unit then it doesn't matter I guess.

[Hicks58]

From the level of hate I see leveled at the Comet, this seems perfectly justifiable.

This line pretty much sums up your entire approach to balance - Emotional to all hell.

People hate something? MULTIPLE NERFS INTO OBLIVION!

Doctrines make something nuts? NERF THE UNIT DIRECTLY!

Rolc's shit is much more on point.

Calculated and singular changes are the way to go, and there's what, 3-4 weeks of no-doctrine time to clean up base balance? You could be making near daily RGD changes (Something which can be easily done, all it requires is Tank to upload it, which he has professed on MANY occasions he can do pretty much any old time) to play with shit properly in that time frame.

[XIIcorps]

Yeah i gotta say volksy cant use emotion for balance, must use small incrimental changes.

[TheVolskinator]

OP updated.

[terrapinsrock]

Goliaths - still too pants on head retarded, so, courtesy of terra, I propose we hardcap it to a maximum of 6 per company.

Hardcaps are bad m'kay?

All they will lead to is to pool (which must die in a fire).

[tank130]

Hardcaps are bad m'kay?

All they will lead to is to pool (which must die in a fire).

Having no pool for the past year has proven with out a doubt that some units require a pool limit or a hard-cap. Price alone can not completely balance the units.

These situations are very few, but they do exist. Making a blanket rule and assuming it will cover every situation is not a great way to handle it.



Starting a balance thread before we disable everything seems kind of counter productive......

[AlphaTIG]

Having no pool for the past year has proven with out a doubt that some units require a pool limit or a hard-cap. Price alone can not completely balance the units.

These situations are very few, but they do exist. Making a blanket rule and assuming it will cover every situation is not a great way to handle it.



Starting a balance thread before we disable everything seems kind of counter productive......

I agree. some units like the goliath or the tetrach are totally fine if used in small numbers. nerfing them or increasing the cost will hurt people who dont spam them most.

Since this thread isnt about doctrines but units i think its actually produtive because some units just need fixing or tweaking independently from docs.

[Shabtajus]

I agree. some units like the goliath or the tetrach are totally fine if used in small numbers. nerfing them or increasing the cost will hurt people who dont spam them most.

increasing the cost will hurt people who dont spam them most.

[/quote]

EIRR system with doctrines giving buffs to certain units forces player to spam. According to your logic devs must hardcap every unit which gets buffs via doctrines.

Ok back on topic.

So goliaths are pain in ass for players who are bad in micro. Split you blob for once ffs. Goliath's fuel price increase by 10 will or pop by 1 make you think twice if it's woth to spam them. Also i suggest remove cloack in cover. It will force goliath user micro harder to achieve sucess with dat thing

Reward heavy tanks - main problem is TA and SP? What about giving them standart stats like has regular pershing and tiger but adding those cool abilities via veterancy like S-mine launcher. After all it's reward unit so it must be some how special. Reaward a player for his skills by forcing him keep his tank alive to get epic stuff. Atm you get Sp and TA with OP stats by default so i feel like it's the biggest problem since even so called bad players can call that thing and kills shit left and right.

PE sprint - give exhaust like AB or rangers have.

Crusader/P2 - crusader should lose overdrive and it will be ok. As for P2 just remove dat phase armour so it was a little bit more easier to hit.

Bren WASP - is fine tbh as it is now. I am not sure who has problems with that thing.

Hetzer - what a wasted tank it is. TD doctrine has more than enough tools in AT department (APCR, Jagd, magnetic nades, extra shreck, marder, 50mm and so on). So why else you need buy shit tank like hatze which is bad vs tanks and bad vs infantry? Yes it has an awsome range but it does not pays off tbh. I think it's time to give a role of infantry killer for hetzer. Make it's gun like sherman's. Range should leave as it is now since hetzer does not has turret.

Comet tank - its reward unit which is annoying but far away from bein OP. Since it cost so much i don't see a reason to nerf it. All you need is remove overdrive so it could not escape from sticky situations. Once again it will reard a player with better skills with removing overdrive.

WESPE - sup with dat scater on this thing? Shells are fine but it NEVER hits nothing. Make it a lil bit more accurate and everything is going to be fine.

88 - thing is fine

[XIIcorps]

Brit Officers - Make them useful again or make them 1 pop, 3 pop takes up far to much field prescence for fuck all effect.

[Scotzmen]

Keep it coming guys, need a list of things to change.

[Shabtajus]

Keep it coming guys, need a list of things to change.

I fell AB needs assymetric warfare to be brought back. It was a damn fun stuff to use and very original as well

[terrapinsrock]

Having no pool for the past year has proven with out a doubt that some units require a pool limit or a hard-cap. Price alone can not completely balance the units.

These situations are very few, but they do exist. Making a blanket rule and assuming it will cover every situation is not a great way to handle it.

Balancing other unit stats other than price would also work in most cases.

Allowing for hard caps would be not only a extreme option but also a slippery slope because all it would take would be 1 or 2 community outbursts for us to start hard capping units right and left.

This would then diminish the freedom of players to design their own companies and erode the appeal of EIR. OMG is an example of why hard caps should never be implemented.