Ostwind balanced, but too expensive?

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[Walkin]

I've been playing around a lot with Axis medium armor post-wipe, and the Ostwind seems to be slightly underperforming at its current price. I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit, it actually feels rather balanced as it is, it's just too expensive.

For 3 Pop less and a whopping 110Fu less, the Puma does an excellent job of fulfilling a similar role, at a way better price point and cost-effectiveness. For 12 Pop (only 3 more than a single Ost) and still 45Fu less, dual Pumas are vastly superior to a single Ost in nearly every way. The meager armor and anti-vehicle capacity of the Ostwind does not make up for it's shortcomings. At this price, the unit just doesn't perform.

The StuG makes for a great comparison to the Ostwind. They perform different roles, but both are similarly priced specialty medium Axis armor. The StuG simply has a much greater battlefield presence than an Ostwind ever could. 40 (or 45?) range, an MG that allows it to still control enemy infantry, and armor to keep it alive for much longer, the StuG is more capable than an Ostwind in just about every regard, and yet the Ostwind is more expensive in every way.

Not a lot is needed to make the Ostwind an appealing unit again, especially with no doctrine or reward units around. I would suggest the following:

-reduce the Ostwind's cost to that of the StuG: 8 Pop (1 Pop less), 300MP (100MP less), 150Fu (25Fu less)
-give Ostwinds the ability to purchase Skirts for 25Fu (Skirts would suit the Ostwind perfectly, making them more resilient versus certain handheld AT, without being overpowered, due to the Ost's already paper-thin armor). This would give Ostwinds some much needed staying-power.
-perhaps increase penetration against Allied light vehicles (despite costing twice as much Fuel as a Hotchkiss, Stuart, M8, etc., Ostwinds are often incapable of handing even the lightest of Allied armor)

Ostwinds are pretty interesting units that are very fun to play with, and I would like to see them become viable again in EiR. Not too much needs to be done to accomplish this, but they're just too expensive and lackluster in their current form.

[TheVolskinator]

The StuG is AT, with 45 range, and is intended to fight, as I said, TANKS.

The Ostwind is AI, with 40 range, and an automatic FlaK 43 3,7 cm cannon that can reliably engage anything on legs and anything smaller than a Stuart.

The Ostwind is fine as is, it doesn't need skirts, it doesn't need better AT capabilities, it doesn't need an automatic, belt-fed V1 launcher.

[aeroblade56]

I've been playing around a lot with Axis medium armor post-wipe, and the Ostwind seems to be slightly underperforming at its current price. I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit, it actually feels rather balanced as it is, it's just too expensive.

For 3 Pop less and a whopping 110Fu less, the Puma does an excellent job of fulfilling a similar role, at a way better price point and cost-effectiveness. For 12 Pop (only 3 more than a single Ost) and still 45Fu less, dual Pumas are vastly superior to a single Ost in nearly every way. The meager armor and anti-vehicle capacity of the Ostwind does not make up for it's shortcomings. At this price, the unit just doesn't perform.

The StuG makes for a great comparison to the Ostwind. They perform different roles, but both are similarly priced specialty medium Axis armor. The StuG simply has a much greater battlefield presence than an Ostwind ever could. 40 (or 45?) range, an MG that allows it to still control enemy infantry, and armor to keep it alive for much longer, the StuG is more capable than an Ostwind in just about every regard, and yet the Ostwind is more expensive in every way.

Not a lot is needed to make the Ostwind an appealing unit again, especially with no doctrine or reward units around. I would suggest the following:


-perhaps increase penetration against Allied light vehicles (despite costing twice as much Fuel as a Hotchkiss, Stuart, M8, etc., Ostwinds are often incapable of handing even the lightest of Allied armor)

Ostwinds are pretty interesting units that are very fun to play with, and I would like to see them become viable again in EiR. Not too much needs to be done to accomplish this, but they're just too expensive and lackluster in their current form.

Wat

The ostwind If i remember correctly already does what u want it to do. it already has amazing penetration vs, the m8 greyhound(80% if not 95% same with the tet)
And guess what, the t17 and staghound use the greyhound armor.

It already pens quads, bren carriers at 100%.

It also hits jeeps like a madman with a sneaky modifier for damage to aid it, being a able sniper protected.

[Tachibana]

For 3 Pop less and a whopping 110Fu less, the Puma does an excellent job of fulfilling a similar role, at a way better price point and cost-effectiveness. For 12 Pop (only 3 more than a single Ost) and still 45Fu less, dual Pumas are vastly superior to a single Ost in nearly every way. The meager armor and anti-vehicle capacity of the Ostwind does not make up for it's shortcomings. At this price, the unit just doesn't perform.

Basically, nothing is wrong with the ostwind, rather, armoured cars/pumas too cost effective?

[Walkin]

The StuG is AT, with 45 range, and is intended to fight, as I said, TANKS.

Here's the thing: a StuG can engage every kind of unit on the battlefield, from infantry to tanks. The Ostwind simply cannot do that.

The StuG is virtually unrivaled in its ability to handle vehicles. The same cannot be said about the Ostwind vs infantry, as the Ostwind is, at best, adequate.

The StuG can engage targets without too much fear of counter-attack. The Ostwind, with its shorter range and thinner armor, cannot do this.

A StuG can sometimes secure and defend an entire flank all by itself, given its generalist nature. An Ostwind cannot do that.

The StuG has excellent armor, and can be called upon to soak up enemy fire if need be. The Ostwind has to be babysat, because a single ATG shot or even a stray Zook will ruin your day.

A StuG can generally survive a run of bad luck. An Ostwind is as good as dead if things go even just slightly awry.

Etc., etc., etc.

The StuG is preferable to the Ostwind in almost every instance, and the few ways in which the Ostwind id better, it's only just barely. And yet the Ostwind is more expensive in every way. That's not right. The Ostwind is simply too expensive for what it delivers.

As a final note: I've tried running a mixed StuG / Ostwind company and playing with that, but I quickly found that in almost every circumstance, it was always better to take more StuGs than it was to deal with Ostwinds at all. And if Ostwinds are underperforming now, just wait until Zooks and RRs are in.

There's a reason you see some Pumas and especially StuGs all over the place currently, but very few Ostwinds.

Basically, nothing is wrong with the ostwind, rather, armoured cars/pumas too cost effective?

Let me put it to you this way: currently, ACs are better performing and more cost-effective than the Ostwind. So either ACs are too cheap, or Ostwinds are too expensive. But given that people aren't exactly spamming ACs, and that a 400HP Ostwind is actually less survivable than a 300HP Puma, I'll let you decide which.

[XIIcorps]

Here's the thing: a StuG can engage every kind of unit on the battlefield, from infantry to tanks. The Ostwind simply cannot do that.

The StuG is virtually unrivaled in its ability to handle vehicles. The same cannot be said about the Ostwind vs infantry, as the Ostwind is, at best, adequate.

The StuG can engage targets without too much fear of counter-attack. The Ostwind, with its shorter range and thinner armor, cannot do this.

A StuG can sometimes secure and defend an entire flank all by itself, given its generalist nature. An Ostwind cannot do that.

The StuG has excellent armor, and can be called upon to soak up enemy fire if need be. The Ostwind has to be babysat, because a single ATG shot or even a stray Zook will ruin your day.

A StuG can generally survive a run of bad luck. An Ostwind is as good as dead if things go even just slightly awry.

Etc., etc., etc.

The StuG is preferable to the Ostwind in almost every instance, and the few ways in which the Ostwind id better, it's only just barely. And yet the Ostwind is more expensive in every way. That's not right. The Ostwind is simply too expensive for what it delivers.

As a final note: I've tried running a mixed StuG / Ostwind company and playing with that, but I quickly found that in almost every circumstance, it was always better to take more StuGs than it was to deal with Ostwinds at all. And if Ostwinds are underperforming now, just wait until Zooks and RRs are in.

There's a reason you see some Pumas and especially StuGs all over the place currently, but very few Ostwinds.
Let me put it to you this way: currently, ACs are better performing and more cost-effective than the Ostwind. So either ACs are too cheap, or Ostwinds are too expensive. But given that people aren't exactly spamming ACs, and that a 400HP Ostwind is actually less survivable than a 300HP Puma, I'll let you decide which.

An AVRE can engage every unit type too, albeit with different degrees of success, stop comparing a strictly AI unit that happens to be a decent lv deterrent with a unit that is almost strictly AT unless you purchase an MG

[Walkin]

An AVRE can engage every unit type too, albeit with different degrees of success, stop comparing a strictly AI unit that happens to be a decent lv deterrent with a unit that is almost strictly AT unless you purchase an MG

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I'm sorry but I literally don't know how I can make it any simpler or easier for you to understand: the StuG costs less than the Ostwind, but is better in almost every way. The StuG can do everything the Ostwind can do, and then some. The Ostwind is an AI specialist unit, yes, but if that's all it does, then why does it cost more in every regard (+100MP, +25Fu, +1 Pop) than the StuG, which can do a little bit of everything? The Ostwind is not worth the 175Fu it costs, or the 9 Pop it takes up; those resources can and should be spent elsewhere, on better and more cost-effective units. There's no reason to take an Ostwind in your company when a StuG can do just as much, and even more, for about the same price.

Either the StuG is overpowered / underpriced, or the Ostwind is underpowered / overpriced. And seeing as the Ostwind doesn't seem to deliver for how expensive it is, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.

[XIIcorps]

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I'm sorry but I literally don't know how I can make it any simpler or easier for you to understand: the StuG costs less than the Ostwind, but is better in almost every way. The StuG can do everything the Ostwind can do, and then some. The Ostwind is an AI specialist unit, yes, but if that's all it does, then why does it cost more in every regard (+100MP, +25Fu, +1 Pop) than the StuG, which can do a little bit of everything? The Ostwind is not worth the 175Fu it costs, or the 9 Pop it takes up; those resources can and should be spent elsewhere, on better and more cost-effective units. There's no reason to take an Ostwind in your company when a StuG can do just as much, and even more, for about the same price.

Either the StuG is overpowered / underpriced, or the Ostwind is underpowered / overpriced. And seeing as the Ostwind doesn't seem to deliver for how expensive it is, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.

the stug  has a fixed traverse gun with decent acc vs inf

The Ost on the other hand has a fucking turret and a pew pew death cannon.
It is a specialist unit for a specialist job and it does that job remarkably especially in a non RR spam environment.

[Hicks58]

Ostwinds not viable?

I racked up 150 inf kills in a 4 v 4 I lost, split pretty much evenly between my Snipers (39, 12ish and 12ish on the Snipers) and my Ostwinds, with a few kills here and there on Grens. That's about 50-60 kills attributed to the Ostwinds I had, and 2 of my 4 I ended up lolcharging cause I got sick of a 25 pounder.

Which btw, is an utterly awesome combo. Seriously, Ostwinds are just the natural partner to Snipers and always have been. Add in your secondary source of AT according to taste (Shreck or Pak) and fucking lol as anything that tries to approach your Snipers (Including the dreaded Recon Bren) gets lol-melted. Meanwhile your Sniper wrecks everything of value. Throw in a halftrack if you're really, REALLY paranoid of rushes.

Ostwinds are good vs inf, and they are excellent vs LV's. Their most powerful role is that they simply make shit go away. Inf don't wanna charge an Ostwind, and any LV besides a Stuart knows better than to try their luck. It allows your current force to stay reasonably unmolested by most fast-assets out there - And it doesn't even have to shoot too much to pull it off. You just don't wanna roll that unlucky dice where half of your Tommy or Rifleman squad gets insta-gibbed on a bad roll, or you drop half your health on an M8/Stag/Stuart from 3-4 penetrating rounds.

Also the StuG and Ostwind comparison is ridiculous, they are both made for different roles. Once's a pure AT piece with reasonable AI once up-MG'd, whilst one's a pure anti-LV piece with solid AI.

Long story short, the Ostwind is powerful in the same way as a Sticky. It's a deterrent. It's presence keeps away the shit you don't want crawling up your ass, and allows your specialist units to function without fear. Just cause you can't throw it down your opposition's throat like a StuG, doesn't mean it's UP or useless. Vet 1 also makes it pretty durable, which isn't all that difficult to get.

[NightRain]

All I see is blah blah blah and individual cases. Listen to the guy instead of yelling how you had a great game weeks ago with said unit anyone can have a great game with any unit, doesn't mean it is the best thing ever in every case only when one manages to get it on position where it is the most ideal. I see the usual wolf pack assaulting a new guy who throws out a suggestive input.



Please Walkin you oughta switch Ostwind to stug comparison. It ain't a good one, try something like P4 for instance.

[Hicks58]

NightRain walks in, reads half a post, makes input, lol.

[XIIcorps]

. I see the usual wolf pack assaulting a new guy who throws out a suggestive input.

walkin is carrot

[tank130]

And this is the balance forum where personal attacks get you banned......

[Shabtajus]

Ostwind needs to get sherman's gun tbh with same ROF