Panzergrenadier Thread - no. #2135346

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[EliteGren]

We've had so many Panzergrenadier changes over the years that I've lost count, and we had another one recently again, it just never seems to be "right". Offering a solution here:

I really don't see why the PE mainline infantry unit is damned to be worse than Wehrmachts regular infantry (Grenadiers). They're supposed to be an 'elite' faction, (hence the name) Panzergrenadiers right now are pretty much a straight copy of Wehrmacht Grenadiers since the soldier armor removal, with the big exception that they cost less and most of all are equipped with the dogshit PE K98.

There is no logic in this. It should be the other way around, PEs mainline unit should be MUCH more expensive than Grenadiers and be better. Infact I think we have the perfect unit for that already. I am not and never was a fan of infantry reward units, the whole concept just makes no sense to me because infantry are prone to die to so much to random shit like offmaps, howitzers and AVREs etc that it mostly results in pure frustration (I am glad we went the standard unit route with Marines already). The unit im talking about right now are Elitegrenadiers. (yes there is an inherent irony in me making this post)

Here's a proposal: It would be great if Panzergrenadiers were made into something more expensive. I'm thinking the Elitegrenadier reward unit is perfect for this already. They are inherently better than Wehrmacht Grenadiers because they use 4 G43s (which is a standard PE weapon anyway). Raising their price accordingly to represent that they are readily available now is needed. Price them somewhere around 400 mp, remove medkits and fausts and we got Panzer Elites mainline infantry. Not sure if the name should be kept or if they should be renamed to Panzergrenadiers and just take their place.

In general I liked the soldier armor PGs a lot more than the Wehrmacht copycat, very good at taking small arms fire but very susceptible to grenades and vehicles due to low hp, it was an interesting trade off, and IMO changing that was just a step torwards making PE and Wehr more of the same when they should be different. But however good that iteration of the unit was, I think that replacing them with EGs at this point would add a lot more flavour to the faction itself, they have the perfect skin, already use PE weapons, and they go with the elite theme of the faction itself. It is very frustrating and anticlimactic to play an elite faction when their standard unit performs worse than normal standard infantry of the brother faction that is Wehr.

[tank130]

PE should be based on fast moving, mobile, vehicles. It should not be sporting high end Elite infantry as well.

The problem of the past was PE became just like Wher in that everyone used their infantry and many of the vehicles became redundant. The faction just became another version of Wher

What you have proposed will result in the same thing, but only better infantry.

[GORKHALI]

PE has Assault grens but they r too weak to assault anything except unupgraded inf and support weapons from the flanks and are only effective when moving, maybe give assault grens a better health or inf armor...

[EliteGren]

PE should be based on fast moving, mobile, vehicles. It should not be sporting high end Elite infantry as well.

The problem of the past was PE became just like Wher in that everyone used their infantry and many of the vehicles became redundant. The faction just became another version of Wher

What you have proposed will result in the same thing, but only better infantry.

I dont understand tank. Panzergrenadiers are a straight Wehr copy with a worse weapon right now, I am proposing moving away from being a copy version of Wehrmacht and making them more unique.. My proposal and core point is making the unit into a beefier unit than Wehrmacht Grenadiers instead of a worse one, because it makes no sense for Panzer Elite to have a worse mainline infantry than standard Wehrmacht has.

This has no impact on PEs playstyle. This wont change a thing except that PE players get to experience the joy of having a good mainline infantry unit for the first time since that retarded copy change was made back in 2009/2010. It's another step in eliminating a Wehrmacht similarity that was introduced years ago for no good reason. The faction will still remain vehicle based, this is just 1 anti infantry unit in the end.

There was no reason to move away from the unique 55 hp soldier armor model in the first place, that was done during a time of coders with questionable sense of balance and we never corrected it again. The EG unit just fit a lot better now as I explained above.

[Tachibana]

The core of the argument here seems to be  whether the 55hp soldier armor being switched to 80 inf armor  was a good idea or not. Using that argument as a reason to port over elite grenadiers is a bit tenuous. Also, implementing reward infantry is not quite as straighfoward as "make them 400mp"(as we learned with Marines)

As to why pgten armour was switched, I don't know enough details, but someone who does is probably still around and can give the core reasons behind it. Basically, I think for overall ease, a armour switch for pgrens is more likley than PE getting Elite Grenadiers. That being said, final call comes down to Tank. So, I guess everyone can continue to give their arguments here, and as long as its kept civil,  I'm pretty sure tank(and rest of current dev team) will take everything into consideration. Just, don't start a witch hunt if it doesnt go the way you want it (poor aero has had to survive enough of those)

PE has Assault grens but they r too weak to assault anything except unupgraded inf and support weapons from the flanks and are only effective when moving, maybe give assault grens a better health or inf armor...

Assault grens have airborne armor as it is. You are also getting 4(maybe 3) mp44s for 90 munitions. In both bases, its fairly.low on the munitions curve.

[EliteGren]

The core of the argument here seems to be  whether the 55hp soldier armor being switched to 80 inf armor  was a good idea or not. Using that argument as a reason to port over elite grenadiers is a bit tenuous. Also, implementing reward infantry is not quite as straighfoward as "make them 400mp"(as we learned with Marines)

As to why pgten armour was switched, I don't know enough details, but someone who does is probably still around and can give the core reasons behind it. Basically, I think for overall ease, a armour switch for pgrens is more likley than PE getting Elite Grenadiers. That being said, final call comes down to Tank. So, I guess everyone can continue to give their arguments here, and as long as its kept civil,  I'm pretty sure tank(and rest of current dev team) will take everything into consideration. Just, don't start a witch hunt if it doesnt go the way you want it (poor aero has had to survive enough of those)


Assault grens have airborne armor as it is. You are also getting 4(maybe 3) mp44s for 90 munitions. In both bases, its fairly.low on the munitions curve.

The core argument was actually that PGrens are sporting a K98 that is infinitely worse than the normal Grenadier K98, but more on that later. The armor thing was just something that just added to the whole crap state of PGs, and replacing their stats with EG ones is being proposed by me because it solves both of those issues.

It should just be seen as adjusting Panzergrenadier stats to those of Elite Grenadiers. It's not just porting them over, they will lose the medkit and faust and retain all the PE abilities. The theme of Panzer Elite is to be a highly trained mobile army, a worse WM Grenadier doesnt fit anywhere in there.

The stats EGs have should be what Panzer Grenadiers should have gotten from the beginning. Elite armor (extra damage from flames, raped by nades) but excellent small arms fire resistance, and a very good DPS. The problem with just the armor change is that they will still retain the sorry excuse of a weapon that calls itself PE K98, that was the main concern that made me do this post. Panzer Elite should be better equipped than standard Wehrmacht, the PE faction itself was loosely based on the Waffen SS afterall. Panzergrenadiers should be an all around better unit than Wehr Grenadiers, it's the other way around right now.

It seems very retarded to me that they are outclassed by the standard infantry of Wehr. It's not like EGs are an uber unit either, they are just really good in firefights against all allied infantry.

I am eager for other people addressing my points to see what they think, I am slightly annoyed that no one has responded to my original points yet. To me, it makes a whole lot of sense. You could make the case that TBs and AGs should have EG stats too, but step by step. I have used Assault Grens yesterday with medkits on Luft and was very disappointed in them.

[Hicks58]

FYI the HP change was something done quite a while back during my time (We're talking Pq era iirc).

It was done mainly because 3/4 man 55 HP squads as mainline infantry just do not do well in EiRR's environment where vehicles are abundant.

Vehicle cannons utterly rip 55 HP / Soldier armour infantry to shreds, which was poor to have on PE's mainline inf. Hell, the only reason it (kinda) works out for US is because Riflemen are a 6 man squad and can pad out the damage much more effectively.

Whilst yes, the PzGrens were different in their nature due to the 55 HP / Soldier armour, it just wasn't workable in EiRR's environment - vCoH PzGrens are built in the environment of vCoH, where retreat doesn't cost a thing and you get through on reinforcing.

Are there other ways of approaching PzGrens? Sure, but at the time the armour/hp change was better than leaving PE with completely gimped infantry.

[Smokaz]

to me there is other ways of looking at this than removing the armor/hp rework, which I think worked out well, but it ignored the fact that base pgrens busters would be underpowered even for a man power only price, compared to grens vs vs rangers, tommies, assault engies, which beat vanilla pgrens very easily.

[I2ay]

It seems to me that this change actually promotes the use of PE as a mobile hit and run force just as you would like Tank. If the base infantry aren't good at standing up to vehicles in any way shape or form, you promote the use of infantry halftracks to keep them out of harms way. This also promotes combined arms because you will need to constantly keep AT combined with the infantry halftracks to protect them from light vehicles/medium tanks. This also actually makes it worthwhile to stick regular infantry into an IHT as opposed to only expensive munitions based units (shreks/Assault grens) because the rifles won't be steaming piles of shit. As it stands now, I don't use any infantry halftracks in my main PE company because I don't want to lose a high munition squad, which is the only kind worth putting in them, due to the IHT dying instantly to large amounts of AT. If my only loss was manpower, I'd far more eager to mix up my company with more than just Marders/snipers/supporting infantry

[Smokaz]

It seems to me that this change actually promotes the use of PE as a mobile hit and run force just as you would like Tank. If the base infantry aren't good at standing up to vehicles in any way shape or form, you promote the use of infantry halftracks to keep them out of harms way. This also promotes combined arms because you will need to constantly keep AT combined with the infantry halftracks to protect them from light vehicles/medium tanks. This also actually makes it worthwhile to stick regular infantry into an IHT as opposed to only expensive munitions based units (shreks/Assault grens) because the rifles won't be steaming piles of shit. As it stands now, I don't use any infantry halftracks in my main PE company because I don't want to lose a high munition squad, which is the only kind worth putting in them, due to the IHT dying instantly to large amounts of AT. If my only loss was manpower, I'd far more eager to mix up my company with more than just Marders/snipers/supporting infantry

If this is the premise, then what about assault grens? They are effective in inf hts for sure, but they received airborne armor to help with the closing on foot. Do they then need a price hike and their armor removed, to cater to this infantry halftrack regulation?

Also, if you are working to retain upgrades on the field, calling in inf hts to be crewed by 1 and 2 man squads is more rational than not having any inf hts at all.

[Smokaz]

Elitegren, old soldier armor had huge weaknesses as well. Thompson rangers crap on g43s and panzergrens even more, and bar rifles isnt a upgrade PE worries about.

[GORKHALI]

The biggest nerf was when u guys nefrd the g43 supression to nothing ,  it is useless don't do crap anaya supression as compared to bars , that supression was there all these years , now if u try to supress the enemy will just walk at u and shit at ur face coz it takes freaking so long.

Why is bar not nerfed , it does insta supress as well, most ally has sprint fire up and smoke  to counter or flank gets free as Pe has to pay manpower to get sprint  and those inf ht  r a death trap .

I am also for Elite panzer grenediers and support grenediers to get added to Pe faction  , adds more variety  to Pe faction

[Shabtajus]

Well EG n smokaz missed that time we had uber PE 5 men pgren blobs anahilating allies like no tomorrow. Devs decided nerf them by taking away 1 men from the crew instead of tweeking price and it led to shitty pgrens. Now the main problem PE has is lack of supression tools for controling allied inf blobs. Especially brit blobs with leut sprint. I say make pgrens 5 men again with price increase and add support pgrens as supression tool. Marines gave us a good lesson of what happens when reward infantry is introduced as a base inf. So we learnt from it or we dont?

[skaffa]

I dont buy the current PGs either. Feels like im just feeding enemy xp and wasting my pop.

[CrazyWR]

The biggest nerf was when u guys nefrd the g43 supression to nothing ,  it is useless don't do crap anaya supression as compared to bars , that supression was there all these years , now if u try to supress the enemy will just walk at u and shit at ur face coz it takes freaking so long.

Why is bar not nerfed , it does insta supress as well, most ally has sprint fire up and smoke  to counter or flank gets free as Pe has to pay manpower to get sprint  and those inf ht  r a death trap .

THIS