Tank's Legacy

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[CrazyWR]

Right but you've already paid a cost to pick that doctrinal selection and not something else, why do you have to pay twice? 

[Unkn0wn]

I'm not sure I understand your concerns.

1 - Buffs are bland and unimaginative and associating costs to them is only a bandaid fix.

2 - Lower unlocks unlock too many units.

3 - Upper unlocks are too descriptive--we should make descriptions easier to understand by simplifying them (i.e. Tank Reapers - ATGs gain better penetration and range).

4 - Being able to mix and match doctrines is bad; we should revert to rigid trees.

5 - If we continue to make players pay resources for unlocks, we should increase the MP pool (which in effect does the same thing as making everything free, relative to the old system).

Do I have that right? I would like to point out that it took almost two years of work with a team of 2-3 of us to get us to where we are now. To demand basically reverting the entire system and overhauling it with "no stat buffs", "no prices", and "simpler descriptions and effects" would drown me--not a team, but me--in another year or more of work. What you ask is functionally impossible.

Just to say i didn't mean to criticise the steps EIR has taken and the excellent work Tank and now you are doing to keep this mod alive. I'm really grateful for that, as is everyone here I'm sure and I'm by no means advocating for a drastic overhaul. Just wanted to highlight some of the areas in which I feel there's some room for improvement still.

1, 2, 3, 4. I think the salad bar approach is fine really. If we ever get a chance we should ideally just change the graphics so it's clearer that there's no longer pathways and a distinction between the top and bottom table. I would suggest spreading some of the unit unlocks out, to replace some of the more bland stat buffs. And with all doctrine unlocks having a cost, there's no reason why we cant have more powerful stat buffs at least - either permanently or on cooldown (though again I just want to stress it's really important these buffs are visible in game, i.e. either through a special icon or a clear ability effect indicator)

5. I think increasing the base resources somewhat is easy to do - i seem to remember there was a link to do just that in the SQL. Worth considering at least. Perhaps from say 8k to 9K starting manpower. In the old days we also used to have resource bonuses on top of that, but it's just better to have everyone with equal resources from the get-go anyway

Beyond that, with a possible steam launch ahead of us, it's also really worth thinking through all changes from a "new player accessibility" point of view. That was never EIR's strong point to begin with but if we want to ensure the mod's longevity we definitely want to ensure all game systems and launcher functions are as easy, straightforward and streamlined as can be.

[WindCries]

Squad upgrades from doctrines, on the other hand, are not. I fully support the idea of paying moneys for upgrades.

I think that's fair given that it's not really a big issue like the offmaps/repairs things.

With that said the squad upgrades does have an impact on newer players (it's more complicated and requires a lot more pre-game and in-game preparation/memory) so there might be merit to simplifying or streamlining it in some way. More experienced players don't really have much difficulty with it for sure, but they aren't really the problem.

Also i've noticed when you have lots of stacking buffs or upgrades on single units it seems to drastically raise the risk of some abilities' icons blocking out others etc. Which makes sense -- I don't even want to imagine how complicated checking every single combination on every single unit that has upgrades might be for conflicts/overlap in their icons.

Perhaps there's  some way to strike the happy balance between it costing resources to get upgrades on units and not having it be so byzantine and inaccessible for new/medium skill recruits who will surely start arriving when the Steam release happens. Especially when you get into thosse doctrines who can have 3+ special upgrades on even just baseline inf.

[Tachibana]

RE: Offmaps

What if we just limited it to one offmap guy that you can purchase all your offmaps on. Once he gets called on field, you gain the offmaps for use in the old manner (ability bar, unlimited range). It would keep a resource cost on offmaps but make it less finnicky than the 80 range limitation and the multiple free scouting units.

Of course, you still end up with the extra step of putting the offmaps on the radioman, so that may be in conflict with making the game more streamlined for new players. I guess it really boils down to how on board people are with offmaps having a resource cost to them.

[Unkn0wn]

Ideally you'd just buy the off-maps for munitions in a seperate box in the company builder in the launcher. Technically possible at least, but I suppose we have no one who can do launcher code. It needs to have a cost to be in line with other doctrine abilities, otherwise they will be a no-brainer unlock.

A single radioman solution would still be a bit of a pain to deal with but is still an improvement over what we have currently at least.

Or, perhaps a more creative solution - what if selecting an off-map doctrine unlock would just reduce your overall munitions in the launcher by a certain amount? Not sure how difficult that would be to code, but could be a more elegant solution - provided it's clearly communicated to the players.

[WindCries]

^

All of those ideas sound a lot better than the current back alley chaotic circus of free, 1 pop, scouting units who can pick up and use weapons and take multiple sniper shots to kill.

[TheVolskinator]

^

All of those ideas sound a lot better than the current back alley chaotic circus of free, 1 pop, scouting units who can pick up and use weapons and take multiple sniper shots to kill.

They're on the chopping block for the newest patch. 55 HP, Infantry armor, no Heroic crits. They'll gain crits and become armed at Vet4, but lose their ability to pick up slot items. Gives incentive not to throw them away, and makes them easy to kill.

[Shabtajus]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r3hTwsvJV_A

[TheArea]

Dat shab 

[TheVolskinator]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r3hTwsvJV_A

TA delet

[Shabtajus]

You can’t delete shit you never gave it to me you cheap devlead. Steven give me my TA u promised to me you fuck

[Tachibana]

https://streamable.com/2b4ir

Clip of possible offmap rework

Key points

1. Offmaps would still be purchased
2. Not available until the officer comes onto the field
3. Once on the field, they are tied directly to the player. If the officer dies/retreats, they remain useable
4. Would allow hardcap of just one offmap officer, so no longer multiple free scouting units
5. Would prevent ability to call in multiple singular offmaps simultaneously

If even 1 free scouting unit is an issue, you could hard tie 4 scouting runs or MI's to the officer and give him a base cost of 40 Munitions or something like that. It would both stop the free scout issue as well as open up a doctrine slot for more interesting unlocks.

[Unkn0wn]

Pretty neat! But isn't the unit kind of redundant at that point?

[Mysthalin]

https://streamable.com/2b4ir

Clip of possible offmap rework

Key points

1. Offmaps would still be purchased
2. Not available until the officer comes onto the field
3. Once on the field, they are tied directly to the player. If the officer dies/retreats, they remain useable
4. Would allow hardcap of just one offmap officer, so no longer multiple free scouting units
5. Would prevent ability to call in multiple singular offmaps simultaneously

If even 1 free scouting unit is an issue, you could hard tie 4 scouting runs or MI's to the officer and give him a base cost of 40 Munitions or something like that. It would both stop the free scout issue as well as open up a doctrine slot for more interesting unlocks.

Perfect, exactly how i would want it to work.

Unkn0wn - the unit is slightly redundant, but it's a necessary redundancy to be able to give a cost to offmaps due to launcher limitations.

[XIIcorps]

https://streamable.com/2b4ir

Clip of possible offmap rework

Key points

1. Offmaps would still be purchased
2. Not available until the officer comes onto the field
3. Once on the field, they are tied directly to the player. If the officer dies/retreats, they remain useable
4. Would allow hardcap of just one offmap officer, so no longer multiple free scouting units
5. Would prevent ability to call in multiple singular offmaps simultaneously

If even 1 free scouting unit is an issue, you could hard tie 4 scouting runs or MI's to the officer and give him a base cost of 40 Munitions or something like that. It would both stop the free scout issue as well as open up a doctrine slot for more interesting unlocks.

I think we first need to test the proposed changes being, 50hp soldier armor units.