Expensive Volks

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[31stPzGren]

A standard volksgrenadier is by default slightly superior to a basic riflemen, hence volksgrenadiers costing 280 MP in vCOH to 270 MP for riflemen.

Unknown, I like to remind you that the reason WHY volks are MORE expensive is also because of the MANPOWER UPKEEP AND INCOME system which is DIFFERENT from EiR. EiR uses a STATIC system where as vCoH uses a dynamic system. In other words, although it costs 540 MP in total vis-a-vis 560 MP, the upkeep which u pay for them changes drastically!

Your axis income will be at about +280-290 with 2 volks and 2 pios where as if u had 2 engineers with 2 Rifleman your allied income is DEFINITELY BELOW +280. This is why they are priced differently!

In the LONG RUN, the allied player is paying MORE for their units unlike Axis. Check the upkeep & income model for both allied and wehr faction in vCoH.

The only reason riflemen originally costed significantly more than volksgrenadiers in EIR is because riflemen population was lowered from 6 to 5. This should always be kept in mind when discussing volks - rifle balance, although I will say that I've always though that even with this population 'fix' for riflemen, the cost discrepancy between both units was too high.

The population difference is not a factor in my opinion. In EiR, the basic infantry has to cost 5 pop cap for the purposes of standardisation and I fully agree with it. The difference in cost, in my opinion, is more justifiable on the capability of the squads to RE-CREW weapons on the field.

Let me shoot you this example.

If a rifleman squad takes 40% damage, they'll have 4/6 man. If a Volk squad takes 40% damage, they will have 3/5 man left. Recrew a weapon, the rifleman still keeps their vet. Recrew with the volks and you lose ur units completely.

In a battlefield situation, I think it would be VERY VERY common to get 40% damage from mortars, from mgs, from tanks from whatever nonsense you have out there.

Additionally, as mentioned before, the veterancy 1 gives rifleman MORE benefits than volks. In terms of returns and rewards...

Regen for volks ONLY PAYS OFF if your squad members are still alive... or if ur squad even survives to get back their hp. Just how likely is that?

Rifleman gets 25% reduced incoming accuracy. Now that is an INSTANT and CONSISTENT shield from damage which even BEATS damage reduction because if the shots MISS, you receive absolutely 0 damage.

Conclusion
So you're telling me that rifleman should cost only 5MP more??? Think thrice mate.

[Unkn0wn]

Riflemen are only significantly superior on close range, on medium range riflemen have the edge but this is often nullified by all kinds of ingame conditions such as cover, movement penalties, etc. On longer ranges volksgrenadiers are superior. Claiming that basic riflemen are absolutely superior to basic volksgrenadiers overall is rubbish. That's really all I'm saying.

Also, I'm aware you've disregarded the ability to build barbed wire and sandbags as 'important' but it does matter for calculating in the total worth of a volks and/or grenadier squad, regardless of whether or not you think it's important.

Also, Pzgrenadier's first post doesn't even clarify or question riflemen - volksgrenadier price discrepancy, he's just suggesting a different ratio with some fancy math thrown in to make his suggestion seem more intelligent .

The population difference is not a factor in my opinion. In EiR, the basic infantry has to cost 5 pop cap for the purposes of standardisation and I fully agree with it. The difference in cost, in my opinion, is more justifiable on the capability of the squads to RE-CREW weapons on the field.

It doesn't matter what you think, the large 170 - 210 MP cost discrepancy was solely based on the population decrease. Go look in the archives for that specific change made by Ucross and see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Conclusion
So you're telling me that rifleman should cost only 5MP more??? Think thrice mate.

I never told you this, I suggested the discrepancy to be 10 - 15 MP at most rather than 40 MP under Ucross and 5 under Salan. Pay attention. You'll also notice that this will bring it closer to your suggested ratio btw.

[31stPzGren]

Riflemen are only significantly superior on close range, on medium range both units pretty on par, with a slight edge for riflemen. On longer ranges volksgrenadiers are superior. Have you ever played 1vs1 automatch extensively? Claiming that basic riflemen are absolutely superior to basic volksgrenadiers overall is rubbish.

I play ranked 1v1 Automatch extensively before I went into EiR. I am ranked lvl 10 on both allies and axis in the earlier part of this year before I discovered EiR and the highest level then was lvl 12. I am in the top 300 at that point in time.

The reason why rifleman are better is because they are more VERSATILE compared to volks. It is absolutely superior, definitely, but I did not say the margin in which it was superior. I doubt it is "rubbish" you have provided nothing to prove that volks are on par with rifleman.

I wish we still had those labtest videos fl- made, let me look for them.

Labtests are different from field situations. Lab test only indicate the stats, which are unchanged. In a dynamic combat situation, players are constantly adapting and changing tactics. The unit with the GREATEST versatility will excel.

Also, I'm aware you've disregarded the ability to build barbed wire and sandbags as 'important' but it does matter for calculating in the total worth of a volks and/or grenadier squad, regardless of whether or not you think it's important.

I don't disregard it completely. They just do not impact the game as much in EiR as compared to vCoH. Tank traps are the ability which really impacts the game way more than sandbags and barbedwire. Tanks and vehicles are easily brought into EiR unlike vCoH which requires a natural progression to build.

If you bring either of these units; ATG, mortar, ranger, recoiless airborne, tank, vehicle, engineer. You can clear unguarded barbedwire or even sandbags. If you think building barbed wire and sandbags are SO IMPORTANT that volks should be priced at 185... then I have no justifiable argument against that apart from opinion and theory crafting. I haven't seen a game change completely because of hordes of sandbags and wire but I have won games from building hordes of tank traps with my rifleman.

Also, Pzgrenadier's post doesn't even clarify or question riflemen - volksgrenadier price discrepancy, he's just suggesting a different ratio with some fancy math thrown in to make his suggestion seem more intelligent .

I am suggesting the mathematical formulas to have a rational and logical thought at balancing the figures rather than going by feeling.

It isn't just some fancy math. I'm frankly disappointed that you didn't bother to analyse the figures and understand the reasoning behind it.

EDIT: I have placed argument in the earlier posts regarding why volks should be cheaper than rifleman and a few points on price discrepancy. I assume everyone was following the topic hence I did not elaborate. You may want to read the previous posts.

It doesn't matter what you think, the large 170 - 210 MP cost discrepancy was solely based on the population decrease. Go look in the archives for that specific change and see for yourself if you don't believe me.

I don't doubt you since you are here longer than me but I will not use population decrease to justify it because other factors are more convincing than using population. If population was the only justification in pricing difference... it is  sadly, a short sighted view.

Conclusion
I never told you this, I suggested the discrepancy to be 10 - 15 MP at most rather than 40 MP under Ucross and 5 under Salan. Pay attention.

I apologise, I should make my statement more clear. I am suggesting to the pro-current price people, that it is not logical to have only 5MP difference.

[salan]

the only thing i never completely understood, is why so many arguments are based on the opposing forces, instead of against the side they are part of.

i understand that reason people use, i just haven't always felt it to be valid.

[Mysthalin]

the only thing i never completely understood, is why so many arguments are based on the opposing forces, and against the force they are priced for.

i understand that reason people use, i just haven't always felt it to be valid.

I think a lot could be solved by bringing back 10k manpower .

[Unkn0wn]

The reason why rifleman are better is because they are more VERSATILE compared to volks. It is absolutely superior, definitely, but I did not say the margin in which it was superior. I doubt it is "rubbish" you have provided nothing to prove that volks are on par with rifleman.

This is not just about which unit is conceived as better or more versatile. Just because riflemen have more upgrades that can be applied to them does not justify the need for a higher cost on the base, unupgraded unit. That's where the price of the actual upgrade kicks in. It makes no sense that one who uses only unupgraded riflemen has to pay a higher price for them just because they can have upgrades making them extremely versatile units. I'd also like to point out that the loss of global riflemen upgrades makes them significantly less versatile and thus worse than in vCOH.

Riflemen can indeed be conceived as 'better' but they are, in a basic combat situation against the same basic volksgrenadier squad not significantly superior, certainly not in EIR where most infantry battles are generally fought out on somewhat longer ranges imo, and that is what this discussion is about, the volksgrenadier - riflemen comparison. That being said, riflemen should obviously always be more expensive than volksgrenadiers, but by only a slight margin. (Hence my suggested 10 - 15 MP)

I don't disregard it completely. They just do not impact the game as much in EiR as compared to vCoH. Tank traps are the ability which really impacts the game way more than sandbags and barbedwire. Tanks and vehicles are easily brought into EiR unlike vCoH which requires a natural progression to build.

I think the ability to build green cover out of the blue without having to spend cps for doing so is quite valuable and largely underestimated.

I don't doubt you since you are here longer than me but I will not use population decrease to justify it because other factors are more convincing than using population. If population was the only justification in pricing difference... it is  sadly, a short sighted view.

I believe the original discrepancy was 10 - 15 MP at most as well, but that discrepancy was drastically increased once riflemen population was reduced to 5. And I agree with you that, at least a major, cost increase because of that population decrease was not justified.

the only thing i never completely understood, is why so many arguments are based on the opposing forces, and against the force they are priced for.

I think it's valid for riflemen and volksgrenadiers since they're both tier 1 units, come out at the same time, etc. (In vCOH that is). Other comparisons such as grenadiers - rangers, etc are a lot less valid though, I agree with you on that.

[31stPzrGrenadier]

This is not just about which unit is conceived as better or more versatile. Just because riflemen have more upgrades that can be applied to them does not justify the need for a higher cost on the base, unupgraded unit. That's where the price of the actual upgrade kicks in. It makes no sense that one who uses only unupgraded riflemen has to pay a higher price for them just because they can have upgrades making them extremely versatile units. I'd also like to point out that the loss of global riflemen upgrades makes them significantly less versatile and thus worse than in vCOH.

Riflemen can indeed be conceived as 'better' but they are, in a basic combat situation against the same basic volksgrenadier squad not significantly superior, certainly not in EIR where most infantry battles are generally fought out on somewhat longer ranges imo, and that is what this discussion is about, the volksgrenadier - riflemen comparison. That being said, riflemen should obviously always be more expensive than volksgrenadiers, but by only a slight margin. (Hence my suggested 10 - 15 MP)

If that is the case, do you propose that we include manpower costs for upgrades on BAR, Stickies and Grenades as well? If the normal player should not be punished for using vanilla rifleman, then the MP costs should be stacked somewhere else then. If not, we could have two different types of rifleman. One vanilla which cannot be upgraded, which for example, costs 200 MP and another which costs 215-230MP which is upgradeable w/o any additional manpower cost. This only applies if the pricing of volks do not change.

In my experience, I never had a match up between volks and rifleman where they both just sit on the opposite side of the fence and slug it out. The rifleman will always lose at long range therefore the player will always move in close to do something or move out of range because it isn't worth it. Thats why I don't understand why people keep harping on the idea that volks are "superior" at long range... the problem is... who fights with volks at long range with rifleman??? Unless they are sure they will win.

My disagreement with you lies here, that I believe the price difference should be 20MP, at 180MP for volks as compared to 200MP for rifleman because I think that the disadvantages justify a greater price difference.

I think the ability to build green cover out of the blue without having to spend cps for doing so is quite valuable and largely underestimated.

Hmm, I really don't know how this will really work out. The only times this benefited me was more for vCoH situations than for EiR. The build times are significantly increased in EiR. The thing about defensive operations for infantry doctrine is that, you can be sure every infantry player definitely has it... and that grants tank traps, which makes them more useful than volks where as no doctrine ability improves the potential contributions volks can utilise against tanks.

Could you give more scenarios and situations in EiR where this sandbag building ability turned the tide of battle?

In Conclusion
I think the main differences between our views are that, I believe the versatility of rifleman justifies a higher difference in cost and that I desire a 20MP difference rather than 10-15MP difference.

[Killer344]

180mp for volks sounds good.

[UnLimiTeD5]

10 to 15 would already be far mroe than it is today.
And thats the minimum that is deserved.

[Unkn0wn]

If that is the case, do you propose that we include manpower costs for upgrades on BAR, Stickies and Grenades as well? If the normal player should not be punished for using vanilla rifleman, then the MP costs should be stacked somewhere else then. If not, we could have two different types of rifleman. One vanilla which cannot be upgraded, which for example, costs 200 MP and another which costs 215-230MP which is upgradeable w/o any additional manpower cost.

Uh no. The munition costs for these upgrades is more than sufficient. In addition I'm quite convinced riflemen, or any other unit for that matter, were never priced higher because they have the ability of being a more versatile unit with their upgrades. Your suggestion is absurd and unnecessary

In my experience, I never had a match up between volks and rifleman where they both just sit on the opposite side of the fence and slug it out. The rifleman will always lose at long range therefore the player will always move in close to do something or move out of range because it isn't worth it

Just because riflemen are inferior at longer ranges doesn't imply that it doesn't happen, in addition you rarely get pure riflemen vs volks fighting off, there's always combined arms in the mix, hence why I pointed out that generally, aside from occasional infantry/mechanised assaults, battles are more often than not fought over longer ranges and infantry moving in close only occurs when there is already an advantage at hand.

Hmm, I really don't know how this will really work out

Your personal experience is not a representation of whether or not something is true or not. I also think you're exaggerating on longer build times, it's really not that much longer for sandbags and in addition you only have to build a few pieces and tell your troops to 'hold ground' (in EIR this works particularly well because it has the AI adjustment mod that stops them from running out of cover automatically)

For a great example on how useful sandbags can really be, I suggest you try them on RTC, where the fields generally have little to no cover whatsoever (especially in later stages of the game), creating green cover in the middle of a no-cover zone will give you the clear upper hand.

My disagreement with you lies here, that I believe the price difference should be 20MP, at 180MP for volks as compared to 200MP for rifleman because I think that the disadvantages justify a greater price difference.
I think the main differences between our views..

I think further arguing the 'main difference' in our views would be nitpicking and hardly productive.

[Thtb]

Do the 2 have the same moveing accuracy?

[Unkn0wn]

Yes.

[UnLimiTeD6]

Actually when comparing them both the Kar98k just looks vastly superior, why is that?

[Unkn0wn]

Based on which stats are you saying this?

[31stPzrGrenadier]

@ Unlimited

The damage dealing system for rifles is different from volks thats why u think the kar98k looks superior.

The squadleader deals majority of the damage for volks (where as the rest of the volks deal alot of less damage) and ur probably looking at the squadleaders kar98k which is why it looks vastly superior. For rifles, their squadleader deals lesser damage but the damage dealt by the squad members are even.

There are also differences between M1 Garand and Kar98 damage against suppresed and pinned units as well... which will skew the whole discussion off topic. Please don't raise the damage models for now.

Uh no. The munition costs for these upgrades is more than sufficient. In addition I'm quite convinced riflemen were never priced higher because they have the ability of being a more versatile unit with their upgrades. Your suggestion is absurd and unnecessary

I'm only suggesting possibilities. If no one bother to give any suggestions, no matter how absurd it is, how are we to advance in any direction? So if suggestions are "unnecessary", you will have no improvement. I like to highlight that you made no significant suggestion/solutions of your own in this thread so far.

Just because riflemen are inferior at longer ranges doesn't imply that it doesn't happen, in addition you rarely get pure riflemen vs volks fighting off, there's always combined arms in the mix, hence why I pointed out that generally, aside from occasional infantry/mechanised assaults, battles are more often than not fought over longer ranges and infantry moving in close only occurs when there is already an advantage at hand.

Take mixes out of the picture. Before you balance against combined arms balance against units of similar roles on opposing sides. If you start talking combined arms we will derail so horribly off-topic its not even funny.

In general infantry combat, being able to fight at medium and short range gives u 66% advantage as compared to ONLY long range which gives u 33% advantage.

Please stop talking about "advantage". Let us be rational. Who the hell will fight at "longer" ranges which volks will benefit? I will NEVER let my vanilla rifleman fight against volks at long range. Either I AVOID it, or I find a way to flank or move in close or negate the benefits. Likewise, I expect the axis player to do the same.

Rifleman has more versatility and more benefits as compared to volks and I have not seen any reasoning or logic that volksgrenadiers are 'superior' to rifles. IN WHAT SENSE AND WHAT SITUATION? Please kindly state.

Your personal experience is not a representation of whether or not something is true or not. I also think you're exaggerating on longer build times, it's really not that much longer for sandbags and in addition you only have to build a few pieces and tell your troops to 'hold ground' (in EIR this works particularly well because it has the AI adjustment mod that stops them from running out of cover automatically)

For a great example on how useful sandbags can really be, I suggest you try them on RTC, where the fields generally have little to no cover whatsoever (especially in later stages of the game), creating green cover in the middle of a no-cover zone will give you the clear upper hand.

It gives temporary advantage. If you have nothing that stops a tank/vehicle which can crush it, it is pointless. Building a tank trap on the other hand, will stop tanks from crushing ur defence. I don't think there are any good players out there who will use infantry and assault a prepared position without a good idea of what they are going to do and how they are going to win.

I build sandbags on RTC very often and I tell you that in my experience, without tank traps, its just a colossal waste of time.

--------------------

How about this, why don't we have a game, where u take ur volks at 185 MP, I take the rifles at 200 MP, we build our companies and we see how a RTC game goes and u show me how effective ur sandbags, barbed wire and long range fighting with volks/grens.

Lets stop theory crafting and prove it.

[Unkn0wn]

I'm only suggesting possibilities. If no one bother to give any suggestions, no matter how absurd it is, how are we to advance in any direction? So if suggestions are "unnecessary", you will have no improvement. I like to highlight that you made no significant suggestion/solutions of your own in this thread so far.

Actually, I suggested us to either go back to pre-salan EIR, like originally planned, then increase volks price to 185 - 195 OR lower riflemen to 180 - 190. Alternatively, if they decide to stick with the current system of 8k manpower, drop volks to 170 - 175 and bring riflemen to 180 - 185.

Rifleman has more versatility and more benefits as compared to volks and I have not seen any reasoning or logic that volksgrenadiers are 'superior' to rifles. IN WHAT SENSE AND WHAT SITUATION? Please kindly state.

I never stated volksgrenadiers are superior to rifles, I simply pointed out you and others were exaggerating the superiority of riflemen over volksgrenadiers. Also please elaborate on how plain riflemen are significantly more versatile than plain volksgrenadiers. Upgrades are their biggest versatility, yet in EIR upgrades are not global AND we're talking about the plain rifleman squad here, as in non-upgraded.

I build sandbags on RTC very often and I tell you that in my experience, without tank traps, its just a colossal waste of time.

How is those 20 seconds a colossal waste of time, it's not like you constantly have your volksgrenadiers and grenadiers occupied. You're basically saying that putting your units in green cover or spending 20 seconds on 'creating' green cover in the middle of a no-cover zone without tank traps is overrated.

Lets stop theory crafting and prove it.

You're suggesting that in a scenario with equal squads, volksgrenadiers behind green cover sandbags with barbed wire on the other side and riflemen moving in closer, in an open field with no cover, are going to stand a chance? You don't need a playtest to know the outcome of this. This doesn't mean volksgrenadiers are superior but it does mean that they have the potential of being superior in the hands of a good player.

Anyway, enough about this, I think we've both made our points.
I think you're clearly underestimating the usefulness of sandbags and the importance of green cover overall.
We agree on the rest, continuing on minor details would be nitpicking.

[Thtb]

(Volks are to expensiv)

No big point in talking about it "EIRRmod" is not going to change anything in the next few months anyway.

[stumpster]

(Volks are to expensiv)

No big point in talking about it "EIRRmod" is not going to change anything in the next few months anyway.

Thtb, I would highly recommend that you stop posting like this.  This was an excellent discussion, how about you give the guy more than a week to get everything under control.

[31stPzrGrenadier]

Actually, I suggested us to either go back to pre-salan EIR, like originally planned, then increase volks price to 185 - 195 OR lower riflemen to 180 - 190. Alternatively, if they decide to stick with the current system of 8k manpower, drop volks to 170 - 175 and bring riflemen to 180 - 185.

Thank you for putting that forth clearly. What I would like to object against is this.

Pre-Salan EiR Pricing is good, but increase volks price to 185 at most. Rifles should remain as it is.

With the current system, if you reduce the price of riflemen to 180-185, I can safely tell you it will be horribly unbalanced. The reason I used all those mathetical figures and scaling is because you must scale them accordingly against each other, and against the supply (8k manpower). If you don't, you will create unbalance. While utilising those figures may not guarantee perfect balance, it will definitely reduce the possibility of imbalance significantly.

I never stated volksgrenadiers are superior to rifles, I simply pointed out you and others were exaggerating the superiority of riflemen over volksgrenadiers. Also please elaborate on how plain riflemen are significantly more versatile than plain volksgrenadiers. Upgrades are their biggest versatility, yet in EIR upgrades are not global AND we're talking about the plain rifleman squad here.

Hmm, I believe plain rifleman are significantly more versatile than volks. I'll prove it by replays. You're forgetting as well that munitions have been boosted significantly and at least 50% of rifles will definitely have upgrades.

How is those 20 seconds a colossal waste of time, very often one has volksgrenadiers/grenadiers just standing around not doing much anyway. You're basically saying that putting your units in green cover is overrated.

You're suggesting that in a scenario with equal squads, volksgrenadiers behind green cover sandbags with barbed wire on the other side and riflemen moving in closer, in an open field with no cover, are going to stand a chance?

Have you ever went through the extent of building "Defence Indepth"? It doesn't take 20 secs to build but its very effective.... until artillery and tanks comes. Artillery u can't stop, tanks u can with tank traps.

I'm not suggesting a scenario with equal squads. I'm suggestion a full fledged 2v2, u pick ur ally, I pick my ally, we play a few games, focusing around having volks and rifles in our companies, and u can show how often u build sandbags and use them and we put up the replay for others to review.

[Apex]

170 MP too little. 180 MP cool. Not that I use those smelling Volksgrenadiers.