Resources bonuses. Short thoughts

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[TheDeadlyShoe]

Adding RBs in, as outlined in the manual thread, would probably break the interesting balance we have right now. I find it interesting that even with such limited doctrine abilities as we now have there is a pretty big gulf between veteran and newbie companies...depending on doctrine of course.  Even with high PP costs, 10-30% higher resources in every category would render veteran companies nearly invincible.

But customization is really nice, and it's not usually good to dump mechanics.

So perhaps a very limited form of resource bonuses should be contemplated.  Rather than going up to 30%, just present players with a choice: 10% bonus to one category.  Or maybe two choices, 10% bonus to one 5% to another.  Have a nominal PP cost, or even just make it free - a core aspect of your company.

[EIRRMod]

Thats close to what we are doing.

There wont be 'RBs' as such, but 9 advantage choices that are resource based.

10% MP
20% MP
30% MP

10% MU
20% MU
30% MU

10% FU
20% FU
30% FU

Now, its not cumulative, 30% is the max.
You may chose 3 x 10%'s, 2 x 20%'s and 1 x 30%

This gives a bonus, yet limits it in a way we can predict.

[RikiRude]

soyou guys built it like the old eir doctrines,

4 T1s
3 T2s

kind of way, sounds good. im assuming you have to get the 10% to unlock the 20% and so on?

[EIRRMod]

Yeah thats right, similar to the doc structure of ol' EIR.

Cept, only three tiers of three resource types.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

well yes, that's what's outlined in the manual thread... but a 20% (60% total / 3 categories) bonus to company strength is a huge advantage.

I mean...

everything that you can buy with PPs falls into one of two categories, customization and improved power.  Right now virtually everything you can spend PPs on is customization; you can buy different units, but (theoretically) their prices are still in line with existing units.  Companies are the same size and power, mostly - unlocked units typically have a slight edge in efficiency and capability, as is proper.

in the previous EIR implementation, RBs were basically customization because everyone had them. You did have to play a few games to reach the plateau where RBs came veeeery slowly, but even a 20% advantage in RBs translated to only a 7% increase in company strength.  Now they are becoming power improvements because they are competing with doctrines. And it bothers me.

I'm rather enjoying this level playing field, I'm not sure I want to see it go away, and if the people that play the most have companies that are just bigger than everyone else then I think you are crossing over into grind rather than incentive. 

I know that's inevitable to some extent, but there is a leg up and then there is being badly outnumbered by units that are much better than yours.

Doctrine abilities increase your power, but it's nowhere near as blatant. They also tend to do it in a far more interesting way than simply oversizing your company. That's probably at least as important as anything else I've said. RBs are fundamentally boring if they have to compete with doctrines for attention.

RBs will also exarcebate any balance problems with doctrines. Rather than spending PPs on unlocks you are iffy about or abilities that might be changed, people will simply grab a few key abilities/units then minmax their RBs.  My psychic gaming powers tell me that there are people who will go blitz, grab stormtroopers, then minmax Munitions.  That's just an example.  People will pick out highly effective unlocks then multiply the benefit that gives them by concentrating on RBs.  There is a lot of synergy. People did this with old RBs, but there was no min in that minmax because you wern't giving up anything.

***

TL;DR version:

I'm afraid the RB implementation will exarcebate balance problems and turn our current difficulty curve into a difficulty cliff. I also think grinding for the resource bonuses will be both boring and mandatory.

***

I've always been wishy washy when it comes to implementing sweeping changes, so a lot of my concern might just be anxiety. 

[RikiRude]

To give an idea of what these bonuses entail, here is what they would do.

Base Resources:
8,000 MP
2,000 MU
1,300 FU

10% Bonus:
8,800 MP
2,200 MU
1,430 FU

20% Bonus
9,600 MP
2,400 MU
1,560 FU

30% Bonus
10,400 MP
2,600 MU
1,690 FU

Man a 30% bonus in MP means you could afford 12 extra rifle squads!

After looking at the numbers, I think the bonuses tiers could stand to be something like 20%, 15%, and 10%.

But either way, I'm willing to see how things pan out first before complaining.

[Scyntos]

Personally.. I could use 12 extra rifle squads seeing as they suck. Armored players can't get elite infantry.. so they have to spend a buttload of munitions on decking out rifleman just to keep pace with the opposing army. But this is largely because of armored really only having access to a calliope and pershing and getting no other abilities as of yet. Trying to rely on rifleman in an armored company is kind of counter intuitive when you think 'Tanks'. So really.. once the rest of the game is implemented.. I'm sure somehow this will all be easier to comment on and make more accurate judgment.

Side note: Once again I still hope that we'll be able to rechoose our reinforcements package if at the cost of another 30pp.. I don't care. Armored + Canadian Artilley Reinforcements = Useless.

Edit: Misleading information was 'here'

[salan]

lieu's do effect the infantry, you just don't get the symbol above their head like the tanks.

They did tests in vcoh with cheat mod ... putting a lieutenant into an american company made the americans run double speed.  Was the best way to test.

[Killer344]

Man a 30% bonus in MP means you could afford 12 extra rifle squads!

if you have the pps to pay for them....

[Mgallun74]

iam looking at what i should do for my Reinforcements of my infantry unit... the firefly is nice, but too expensive for me, but wondering, what would the command tank do to the sherman and m10s, quad?


or, what would the LT do to my rangers and rifledudes.

[Smokaz]

Gallum, the sherman benefits A LOT from the command tank. And the firefly gives americans the ultimate in anti armor on wheels. Panthers, tigers gets raped by this thing.

[Mgallun74]

Gallum, the sherman benefits A LOT from the command tank. And the firefly gives americans the ultimate in anti armor on wheels. Panthers, tigers gets raped by this thing.

i know FF is good, but whats the fuel cost again? mp?

[brn4meplz]

615mp and 390 fuel i think

[Mgallun74]

NM.

[Tymathee]

i like the percentage structure. It means you can't spam one resource and you also wont have crazy amounts of resources all in one profile cuz there's a cap.

you can only get 30% of one thing 20% of one thing and 10% of another and you get to choose, which is cool

Will this be hard capped like we can't change it if we want to like reinforcements, or will we be able to say "ok i want more fuel now and not more mp"

[SaintPauli]

MP is so much more valuable than the other resources unless you REALLY need the last bit of fuel:

800MP > 200 Munitions > 130Fuel

[salan]

I think for a heavy ammo company like a commando squad I would still go 30% ammo and 20% mp though.

I do wonder if 30% is to high of a ceiling, of course in the old system your RBs would see you get as high as 60% in one stat, which won't be attainable anymore.  instead its spread out... 5pp for 10% might just be a bit to cheap.

[Igawa]

Would one way to soften the discrepancy between old companies and new companies be to  give some PP at the start, like in the old EIR?

The advantage of doing that now is that the player has a very broad choice on what to spend their initial 10-15 pp on (as a suggestion number). They could unlock doctrines, buy extra units, or dump it all into RBs and wait on the doctrines.

Re the bonus percentages: They do seem a bit high, but to look at it another way...back when I had 9000mp, 2700mun 1400 fuel as a fully developed company, that's kinda a 15% 30% 10% increase

[salan]

err, there are other things that are missing too.

like how many PPS your gain per fight, it is suppose to be depreciating over a week schedule, which is currently not in.

this as well will help maintain a smaller gap.

[Igawa]

ahh, right forgot about that xD