How should we nerf the calli?

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[SyKoFanTlvl2]

I don't know why you guys still bother debating this.. There's really no telling what doctrine abilities, resource bonuses... off maps will bring to the table. All of said things could possibly bring balance to a lot of the game, but you're too impatient.. you want results now. So just continuing to bicker back and forth does nothing. If I were a dev.. I'd read this thread and find it amusing.. but also think to myself that they have no idea what's coming, therefor we're not changing anything until they see the full game.(Which I would totally support.)

I could just start a bunch of balance threads for no reason, but someone out there would respond regardless and everyone would either jump down my throat about it.. or back me up.. and then the next person will counter it.. etc etc.. it just goes on and on. Should save your breath for when balance matters.

Cause this whole debate -excepting the flaming fanboys- is a list of back and forth arguments towards/against nerfing the calli, and ofcourse it wont be implemented till the next version, we know that, someone however has to make the Dev's aware that there is a balance issue regarding the Calli.

Then if the devs later on will come and say - hey, guys, were going to change the calli for the next version, hang on (other than unknowns "small change" comment) - we would, ofcourse like to have our say in how it should be changed, which once more makes this thread useful. If the topic isnt discussed, it wont be resolved either, pure logic.

And doctrines shouldnt be used to balance out the game in anywhere near the amount regular price/availability balance is implemented.
-pretty sure thats the Dev's perspective aswell, otherwise we should just screw the whole system and start adjusting vCOH stats :/

I do tho agree that some ppl are just retarded listening to, not even trying to argument properly and just throwing mud all the time.

[Killer344]

Yet again I am for a slight nerf to it - but blatantly put, I'm really dumbfounded - people did not complain about calliopes.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4386.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4566.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=7002.0 (*sigh)


and I barely took a look to find those :p.

[Tymathee]

Yet again I am for a slight nerf to it - but blatantly put, I'm really dumbfounded - people did not complain about calliopes.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4386.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4566.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=7002.0 (*sigh)


and I barely took a look to find those :p.

lol and there were a lot of stuff made to nerf the callie. It is a great unit but I'll tell you one thing, if you nerf the callie, nerf the tiger ace and king tiger and jagdpanther because all 4 of those units are game changes once put on the field and are really hard to kill.

Everyone tell me something, what do you fear the most? 2 callies on the field, or two tiger aces on the field? Or two king tigers on the field? or two jagdpanthers on the field?

and i didn't mention the pershing for a reason, it's probably the most balanced heavy tank out there, not too powerful but just powerful enough to be a step up for the allies, it's more an addition than a game changer. If anything, the wehr and pe have more capability to combat a heavy tank than the allies do. Which is where I think this debate really starts, how well can you combat a unit? I think if the axis had a unit like the callie, it'd be insanely overpowered because the allies would just have a hell of a time to kill it with no cloaking units (pak, storms) no powerful tank destroyer (panther) or long range units to damage engine (lat ht) or a strong manpacked unit (schreck) ever seen what a player that defends his stuka or nebel well can do? it's insane and can do more damage than a callie can do in the same amount of time (basically, a stuka can do more damage between callie cool downs).

So maybe, we don't really need to nerf the callie, maybe just like people have learned to play against panthers and tigers and king tigers and aces' and jagdpanthers, you need to learn how to counter the callie. I know the 2 times i've played against one, I didn't have much trouble not getting pwned by it and then knocking it out.

[Scyn]

and i didn't mention the pershing for a reason, it's probably the most balanced heavy tank out there, not too powerful but just powerful enough to be a step up for the allies, it's more an addition than a game changer.

Totally disagree. If you play with a pershing in this game right now you'd see how outmatched it is. It has like a 20% chance to penetrate a hetzer from the front.. a hetzer outranges the pershing by 10. (Estimation based on a recent game) And a hetzer... unlike a p4 will penetrate the front armor of the pershing.(Fuck that thread where they cry about a hetzer being overpriced)

Right now the Pershing needs a drastic change in my book. It's obsoleted by nearly everything the axis have. The pershing has almost no chance to hit an at gun.(who knows why)

In short.. the pershing is the same as old EiR.. except now theres even more dangers that a pershing faces. "balanced" isn't quite the word i'd use to describe the pershing. If we're going to nerf the calliope.. then we should probably take into account that the reason people use the calliope is because the pershing is no match for the axis. So by nerfing the calliope without giving the pershing some love.. you're effectively disabling the use of the armored company all together.

[Mysthalin]

Killer, in response to your thread links.

1. It's way outdated from times beyond times forgotten. It might as well be as old as Atari 2600 is.
2. It's posted by aloha. So yeah. Aloha.
3. Also outdated when cali cost 14 pop, and it was a complaint about the veterancy. And frankly, I understand why as 40 seconds between cali recharges would be tittyfucking insane. Now it's nearer 3 minutes.

Also, agree to scyn.

[Tymathee]

I agree the Pershing is more vulnerable than the axis heavy tanks, I kinda pointed that out as the axis have much better AT fighting capabilities than the allies do. What would you do to "buff" the Pershing then?

Right now the Pershing stands at
Pershing, 0, 2, 3
Pershing - 790 MP, 610 F, 17 pop  

Comparatively speaking...
Tiger, 0, 2, 3
Tiger Ace, 0, 1, 4
King Tiger, 0, 1, 4

Tiger - 860 MP, 635 F, 17 pop
Tiger Ace - 900 MP, 665 F, 18 pop
King Tiger - 920 MP, 680 F, 19 pop

Price wise, the Pershing is just like the Panther  (Panther - 770 MP, 590 F, 16 pop)

so...i dunno what you could do to change anything really as its more useful than the Panther (as it can kill infantry) maybe lower the pop of the Pershing so you can field more support around it? I just dont' know what you could do short of lowering the price of the Pershing and Panther to make it more fair

[Mysthalin]

Tiger ace is now 700 fuel, tym ^^.
I'd say only things you could do to the pershing though, is buff it's penetration a bit, and it's speed/acceleration by minimal ammounts.
It feels kind of "right" for what it's priced and all.
However, the TA, for isntance, does not. I tried it and it's just such a roflcopter powerful unit it's not even funny. Speediest tank in the game(tetrarch is a god, not a tank), with the best damage output and second best HP/armor(falls short only to the KT and jagd. That coupled with 18 popcap cost(when a simple Tiger used to cost 18 in vEiR) and uber turret rotation speed...

[CafeMilani]

the pershings penetration is good, it always penetrates the panthers armor, so do u want him to always penetrate super tanks' armor?!
its speed and acceleration is also good, much better than german super tanks' speed and acceleration and much better than shermans' acc

please, PLEASE stop spreading out wrong information.

[Smokaz]

Pershing has horrible turret and track rotation, tbh. It handles like a shopping cart compared to the ace, and costs almost the same. Dont you think allies should get a good unit when they pay as much as a tiger for it, aloha?

[CafeMilani]

then they should buff the track rotation.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The Pershing is fine compared to the Tiger and Panther. It gets dominated by the Jagd, but hey... turret.

It's just the TA that makes a mess of things.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Use a pershing against PE and lol it up, in that instance it actually is useful, I think that's the main difficulty with balancing it.

Also, let's be reasonable, the axis heavy tanks aren't necessarily OP. JUST the tiger ace is OP. It shouldn't even be in the game, let's be realistic, there is a reason it isn't in vCoH and the bullshit of the unit is just extreme.

[Dragon2008]

Can we keep on topic pls........... I think thier is a difference between a pershing and a calli. 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Is there anything more to say about the Calli?   We're well into repeating ourselves.   

[Dragon2008]

Well that means the discussion is over............ LOCK THREAD

[Tymathee]

Conclusion, the callie isn't OP!!! We shouldn't nerf the callie, just l2p

[panzerjager1943]

If we're repeating ourselves it doesn't mean that it isn't OP, infact it means the issue(s) haven't been resolved.

[Tymathee]

i know, i'm just joking around

[Mysthalin]

Or, as someone has put in their signatures :
"There is no problem, so let's stop trying to create a problem and there will be no problem".
I would rather point everyone's attention to a problem that is indeed a problem, and everyone knows is a problem, yet we're not fixing it because it's not too extreme.
And no, I won't elaborate as it isn't related to the cali(well it is, but it's not an in-game unit).

[Killer344]

*sigh* lol.. well tbh, until the doctrines are in, the callie is indeed OP... but well... just wait a bit more.. :p