Pak38, the Root of All Evil

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[MistenTH]

A lot of misconceptions here.

First of all, paks outdps 57mm, not the other way around.  They have the same penetration against similar targets, and the pak outdps the 57mm by approximately 10%.

Secondly, cloak first strike bonus is like a super AP round shot that always hits.  Where as the 57mm has to PAY for AP rounds(which is only two shots), pak gets it for free every time it cloaks.  In addition, the cloaked shot has a large accuracy bonus, AP rounds do not.   On top of that, recrewed paks retain their cloak ability where as the AP rounds that you paid for died with your original 57 crew.

^

The 57mm is not superior to the Pak38 off the bat. Just check coh-stats.

57mm: 150 damage every 3.5 seconds
Pak38: 115 damage every 2.4 seconds (115/2.4*3.5 = 167 damage every 3.5 seconds)

This is without first strike bonus.

The Pak38 costs 50 MP more and 30 Mun more. AP rounds costs 50 Mun for 2 uses, lost when decrewed. The cost of the cloak is already incorporated into the price of the pak38. Add in the AP rounds cost to the 57mm and the pricing is very close.

[gamesguy2]

^

The 57mm is not superior to the Pak38 off the bat. Just check coh-stats.

57mm: 150 damage every 3.5 seconds
Pak38: 115 damage every 2.4 seconds (115/2.4*3.5 = 167 damage every 3.5 seconds)

This is without first strike bonus.

The Pak38 costs 50 MP more and 30 Mun more. AP rounds costs 50 Mun for 2 uses, lost when decrewed. The cost of the cloak is already incorporated into the price of the pak38. Add in the AP rounds cost to the 57mm and the pricing is very close.

You are reading the stats wrong.

57mm: 150 damage every 3.5(reload)+1.8(windup/winddown) seconds=28.3 dps
pak38: 115 damage every 2.4(reload)+1.3(windup/winddown) seconds=31.08 dps.

Like I said, pak outdps the 57mm about 10%, without the first strike bonus or AP rounds.

[RikiRude]

OK, raise the price of the 57 to include the AP rounds and put it on a long cool down, and it won't lose AP rounds when it's recrewed.

[gamesguy2]

OK, raise the price of the 57 to include the AP rounds and put it on a long cool down, and it won't lose AP rounds when it's recrewed.

I'm not sure thats possible.

In anycase, it would not address the paksniping issue.

[acker]

Cloak costs approximately 20 MP, 30 MU*. AP rounds cost 50MU. And the vanilla Pak has more DPS/penetration than the vanilla 57mm.

For the price, I don't know anyone who would turn down Cloak, especially since it grants its substantial bonuses independently of who crews the gun. Well, for Wehrmacht troopers anyways.

Accuracy against scouting vehicles...the Pak normally has 100% accuracy against a still Jeep, and 60% accuracy against a moving Jeep.



*(assuming that the vanilla Pak is worth just as much as a vanilla 57mm, a tenuous assumption at best)

[gamesguy2]

Cloak costs approximately 20 MP, 30 MU*. AP rounds cost 50MU. And the vanilla Pak has more DPS/penetration than the vanilla 57mm.

For the price, I don't know anyone who would turn down Cloak, especially since it grants its substantial bonuses independently of who crews the gun. Well, for Wehrmacht troopers anyways.

Accuracy against scouting vehicles...the Pak normally has 100% accuracy against a still Jeep, and 60% accuracy against a moving Jeep.



*(assuming that the vanilla Pak is worth just as much as a vanilla 57mm, a tenuous assumption at best)

Vanilla pak outdps vanilla 57mm by 10%.

The cloaked first strike bonus gives a 4x accuracy bonus as well.  You can see why jeeps don't survive.

[AmPM]

DPS on ATGs is a faulty arguement, most people do not sit a tank still in front of them.

Single shot the 57mm wins.

2nd shot the 57mm wins.

Why you would sit still for a 3rd shot of anything I have no idea, other than that both Ami and Brits have mobile tank cripplers.

[MistenTH]

A standard response when your tank gets shot at by an ATG is to reverse. The pak fires faster. The 57mm often only gets 1 shot off before the tank backs out of range. Pak38 frequently gets 2 shots off due to its faster RoF, hence dealing more damage.

[Tymathee]

DPS on ATGs is a faulty arguement, most people do not sit a tank still in front of them.

Single shot the 57mm wins.

2nd shot the 57mm wins.

Why you would sit still for a 3rd shot of anything I have no idea, other than that both Ami and Brits have mobile tank cripplers.

the weher have mobile tank destroyers (double schrecks) and the pe have cripplers and destroyers (atht, tank hunters, at nades) dont try and say at nades suck either, i use them effectively all the time and if you get a good shot on a tank, it can take ea lot of damage and damage the engine. Love those things

[Mysthalin]

AT nades are rather fail tymathee, though I have to admit I've done an unforgivably lame thing : I managed to get one of my tetrarchs AT naded . Good thing there were sappers about, as always.

Though for the current cost, AT nades are possibly an interesting thing to have around... Like a lame sticky counterpart for what was it 25 mun?

[gamesguy2]

AT nades are rather fail tymathee, though I have to admit I've done an unforgivably lame thing : I managed to get one of my tetrarchs AT naded . Good thing there were sappers about, as always.

Though for the current cost, AT nades are possibly an interesting thing to have around... Like a lame sticky counterpart for what was it 25 mun?

Its 2 uses for 25 munitions.

I put them on everything and throw them at everything.   You can kill weapon teams, AT guns, emplacements, collapse buildings, and a bunch of crap with it in additional to the occasional time you actually hit a tank with it.

Its dirt cheap and very useful because its so cheap.

[MistenTH]

How much damage do at-nades do to emplacements? I don't recall them doing much to an emplacement.

[Mysthalin]

in vCoH double AT efforts + AT nades = dead campdowning brit ^^.
I always remembered AT nades to be awesome vs emplacements, personaly :S.

[VariantThirteen]

^ the pak cloaking argument has been going on since the eir days when we could have 30+ riflemen, so having more riflement, so being able to use them as a patrol doesn't change anything. Pak sniping is an annoynace and a really powerful tool. Before the at vs at gun change, it was simply annoying to have your at gun sitting there, in the middle of your infantry and hvae it just get pak sniped by a pak, or even worse an officer supervised pak that'll take it out before it even uncloaks.

It was simply annoying before, it is imbalanced now. That is the root of this issue - riflespam was nerfed, probably to save PE who lack the MG's to counter it. As a result of the keystone of Pak countering being nerfed, the Pak is now inadequately countered, but is not independantly as strong as it is made out to be.

The point is that the cloak on Paks allows it to be used in a way the 57mm can't - offensively, not having riflespam makes it too strong defensively as well.

Everyone can see where I'm going with this.

[Schultz]

How about bying more recon units as ampm said and proper scouting, or stop rushing tanks to where you know a pak will be. How about flanking ? Many come charging in mindlessly straight where they know a pak is and complaining about.
Come on, you guys want to blob, use artillery, spam tanks and still being able to build emplacements on top of the axis players face
How exactly more of an easy mode this has to be?
Its not the pak38 that breaks the game, i found this so ridiculous. If you dont even mind the blobs that directly refer to vcoh, is there a point of arguing ?

[gamesguy2]

How about bying more recon units as ampm said and proper scouting, or stop rushing tanks to where you know a pak will be. How about flanking ? Many come charging in mindlessly straight where they know a pak is and complaining about.
Come on, you guys want to blob, use artillery, spam tanks and still being able to build emplacements on top of the axis players face
How exactly more of an easy mode this has to be?
Its not the pak38 that breaks the game, i found this so ridiculous. If you dont even mind the blobs that directly refer to vcoh, is there a point of arguing ?

Recon units?  Such as the jeep that gets one shotted by the pak and the recon section which gets suppressed by the MG and cannot reveal the pak until they get ridiculously close?

Flanking?  Against an invisible AT gun that can be pointing at your tank long before it even gets there because a tank isnt exactly the most sneaky thing in the world?

Support weapon spam has gotten way out of control, it needs to be reined in along with emplacements.   When you have more MG42s on the field than your opponent has infantry squads, something is seriously fucked up.

[Schultz]

And mind that not even 7 mg42s can make it out alive. You see man, not-fun zerg tactics result in no fun counters.

[Warlight]

Flanking?  Against an invisible AT gun that can be pointing at your tank long before it even gets there because a tank isnt exactly the most sneaky thing in the world?

I'd love to say more but I don't have time.

Refering to the above quote.  WHY THE HECK ARE YOU SCOUTING/ATTACKING FOR/A PAKS USING A TANK.  That is all on that.

And secondly, it seems like you only address the points you want to here.  I think we've seen plenty of good arguments from the pro pak side the nullify what your trying to say.  The point of a debate is for you to prove them wrong.  When I get back from class, I'll post more.

And P.S. If rifle blobs were a counter (for manythings), and everyone admits "blobs" are bad, why do blobs even matter?   Leave blobs out of this becuase the blobs are bad.  There were and are counters without blobing, the fact that you cannot blob any more, is a good thing.

Untill I have more time, stop scouting paks with your tank.  That is all.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Counter the HMG with piats, trust me it works, fire over a bit of cover and watch how fast you gib that HMG, watch as your opponant chuckles in humour at the AT weapon turned anti everything, it's a laugh!

[acker]

Flanking?  Against an invisible AT gun that can be pointing at your tank long before it even gets there because a tank isnt exactly the most sneaky thing in the world?

Refering to the above quote.  WHY THE HECK ARE YOU SCOUTING/ATTACKING FOR/A PAKS USING A TANK.  That is all on that.

Without going into the rest of your post (which is addressed to Gamesguy), what exactly are you supposed to scout with? The Pak's first shot has a 100% accuracy rating on every vehicle out there, barring sandbags and other terrain hitbox screwups. The Pak is also invisible, which eliminates snipers and line infantry*. You want something that has a chance of surviving the two-three shots the Pak is going to land on you.

I asked this question before in the Strategy forums, I think. I never got a response beyond Apex's epic speakers.

I think that Mannfred is joking, but I don't know for sure...

*unless you seriously fuck up. As in, really seriously.